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Bettany Hughes interview May 2010

 

Bettany Hughes

 

 

Bettany Hughes, historian and broadcaster, has brought ancient history to life and into a 21st century context in a unique and enthralling way. With her passionate explanations of historical events, and the emotions and motivations that led to them, she paints a picture of what the people were really like who are now represented only by these remaining ruins and artifacts. 

A number of TV series on the ancient world and civilisations, fronted by Bettany, have helped to put her in the spotlight as an accessible and recognisable expert on ancient history. With Bettany scrambling enthusiastically and energetically amongst the ruins, we too become enthused and involved in the history and drama. And in terms that we can understand as non-academics, she helps us learn in an hour or two what it has taken scholars, archaeologists, translators and archivists centuries to unravel and demystify. 

Something to look forward to soon (June 2010) is a new series by Bettany about Atlantis. ATLANTIS THE EVIDENCE is now going out on June 2nd on BBC 2 at 9pm.

Bettany shared some of her time with us from her mega-busy schedule and this is the interview that Bettany kindly gave to Digger at www.retrosellers.com

 

 

  

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Digger: Good morning Bettany. It’s too nice a day to be working today! 

Bettany: I know. I’m filming this afternoon and it’s one of those days where it’s just impossible to get done what I have to do. 

Digger: Where are you filming this afternoon?

Bettany: I’m doing a Time Team, actually, in Jersey. There’s a brand new archaeology looking at the occupation during the second world war, so we’re going out there and meeting some of the survivors while they’re still alive to give their testimony. So it’s very interesting. 

Digger: I spoke to Bill Wyman last year and he’s heavily into archaeology and detecting. He had the Time Team turn up at his place and he said he watched them uncovering items which he knew the origins of and waited to see if they got it right with a smile on his face. Because he was so familiar with the area he knew exactly what it was they were digging up, but they had to work at it!

Bettany: (Laughs) How interesting, I didn’t know that. 

Digger: Bill loves his history. Shall we kick off with the questions?

 

 

 

 

Bettany: Yes please do. 

Digger: What’s your view on the repatriation of artifacts, say, for example, Egyptian items in the British Museum?

Bettany: It’s complex. I think absolutely everything has to be done on a case by case basis. You can’t have blanket rules about repatriation or reunification. It involves thousands of years of cultural history. If you don’t mind, I don’t want to be put into one camp or the other because all that really matters is that the best thing happens to each object and it’s judged on its merits.

Digger: What has mankind consistently failed to learn from history? 

Bettany: I personally think that we, as a species, are progressive, forward thinking and competitive, and what we haven’t learned to do is to prevent personal ambition completely poisoning that very heady and rather amazing potential that we have. Of course, if you are progressive and competitive and forward thinking, then possibly you’re going to rub up against others and plough your own furrow rather than taking them on board. And that, I would say, is the one thing from the beginning of recorded time that has been an issue. There are some societies that are good at dealing with it and other societies that are not so good at dealing with it. But that, I think, is the key thing that we as a species need to try to resolve. 

Digger: When you think that only a couple of generations ago Europe was at total war and it was almost inevitable and a regular occurrence. And then thinking of how Europe is now. How we can change in just a couple of generations. Or maybe we haven’t?

Bettany: Yes, that’s right, I think that the unfortunate truth is that if you scratch the surface then it’s much closer to the surface than you think. Obviously, ten years ago and The Balkans erupting and all that appalling genocide literally between neighbours. They decided to kill each other whereas they had peacefully co-existed for however many decades. So I think we’ve not got to have rose tinted spectacles and be naïve about how angry people are and how ready they are to think the worst of those around them. We’ve almost got to try to preempt that somehow. The most important thing in a life is to understand the rest of the human race. That’s got to be your priority. 

Digger: Probably one of the hardest things to do.

Bettany: Yes. 

Digger: It shouldn’t be though should it, because as you’ll know from your extensive travels that we’re all pretty much the same?

Bettany: Exactly, but you can’t leave it to chance and assume that it will happen and we’re going to be benign and look out for each other. (Laughs) Because that is what history teaches us, that it’s not our default position, unfortunately. 

Digger: The British did their share, creating Palestine and partition in northern Ireland and so on and then expecting everything just to tick along nicely.

Bettany: There’s that text book thing where if you look a map and generally where there are straight lines drawn then it was literally boundaries decided by drawing on a map. 

 

 

Digger: A lot of the American states are like that.

Bettany: Yes, although that is one nation and a slightly different thing. Obviously it was controversial what happened with the native population of America but it’s a different thing from an invading force coming in and fiddling with territories. There were vast areas of America that were uninhabited although, clearly, it could have been done a lot more sympathetically and with a lot less bloodshed. Babylon is one of the most ancient civilizations on earth and it’s had its boundaries very carefully talked through and negotiated for the last 5,000 years. Drawing straight lines on a map means you’re creating a rod for your own back. 

Digger: Do you think the Internet is diluting people’s ability to do good research? An irony is that there’s a vast array of information and reference material available, the biggest resource of human knowledge ever gathered and yet people will copy information from Wikipedia or the first website they find.

Bettany: I actually take a more positive view. I think that it’s just the most extraordinary, amazing, inspirational, enlightening resource – the material that’s now available on the Internet. And you have a choice so you can go to Wikipedia, but in the past people could have picked up the Ladybird book of the Kings and Queens of Britain, or whatever, and not gone any further than that. 

Digger: Maybe Wikipedia is the Internet version of that.

Bettany: Yes, well the problem is, you and I know, history is filled with half truths and grey areas and it’s not black and white, but Wikipedia just lists things. I think my issue with the Internet as a historian is that of how people behave. Diplomacy, right from Homer onwards, always works better when you have face to face contact and when you can read the person you’re dealing or negotiating with. If you can’t read their body language or the honesty, or not, in their eyes. That has always been the most effective way to resolve situations productively. When it becomes unproductive is when you have bits of paper or papyrus or engraved tablets lying around. They may be a good way to seal an agreement but not to negotiate one. And our problem is that’s what we all do now on the Internet. If you talk to terrorism specialists they’ll tell you why the Internet is a problem. It is that you can have somebody who comes up with all kinds of wild, exciting, high blown, heroic sounding theories and if you were sitting opposite them in a café you would realise they were neurotic, paranoid, sad, unpleasant members of the population. But a well written email can make them sound like heroes. I think that shouldn’t be a replacement for human relationship. It can be a tool for enlightenment but it’s not a replacement for one-on-one human relationships. 

Digger: I agree. Do you think human nature has changed in the last few thousand years?

Bettany: I don’t think it’s changed at all. Not an iota. I can sit and read Homer and it’s as if I’m reading about people who live in my little suburban street. There are beautiful phrases in Homer, like "children being a welcome burden in your laps" or where he talks about the Goddess Athina "swiping away an arrow from somebody’s skin like a mother would swipe a fly away from her baby." Those kinds of moments are instantly recognisable and would be how we would all react to very normal humdrum situations today. So I don’t think we have changed at all. 

 

Temple of Athina at Delphi

Babylon, Mesopotamia, now Iraq

 

Digger: What’s your most exciting find or discovery? 

Bettany: That’s really hard. 

Digger: Yes, I thought so. Sorry about that! It’s like my partner’s grandchild asking me what my favourite colour is today. I always make it up!

Bettany: Every time you find something it’s exciting. I think when I was writing the Helen of Troy book there was this tablet written in Hittite cuneiform, say in the Bronze Age, and it talked about this shocking case where a little princess went over in a kind of diplomatic marriage alliance and she had an affair with someone when she went over to the court. And the two states involved use this infidelity of the princess as an excuse to declare war on one another. And that’s not a poem, it’s not literature, it’s a rather dry bit of negotiating legalese but how incredible. I’m not saying that is Helen, but that is the story of Helen of Troy and there I was looking at it, carved in clay in front of me, from about 1,260 B.C. so whatever that is – over 3,200 years ago. That was pretty amazing. As far as British history goes, in fact, something I did with Time Team last year was we went back and looked at this Napoleonic prisoner of war camp and finding all the little bone dominoes and little carved figurines made by people who had been incarcerated at Norman Cross near Peterborough in Cambridgeshire. There was a fence put up and they were in there for several years in a nightmarish situation and yet they tried to use their skills. That was incredible because again you become very close to an entirely different population. On the 9th June 2010 I’ve got a brand new documentary coming out on BBC2 which is all about Atlantis. I think probably my favourite archaeological finds of all time are these beautiful, beautiful wall paintings on the island of Santorini at Thera which were buried by the volcanic eruption in 1,620 B.C. They are so beautifully done, so expressive, vivid colours and they portray this sun-kissed life that these people led before their life was destroyed and the town was buried under 40 meters of pumice and ash from the volcanic eruption. So those are probably the most vivid memories of mine.
 
Digger: When I went to Pompeii it had been raining that morning and was sunny in the afternoon as we tourists trudged around. I was very aware of the fact that, even a generation ago, you had someone like Alan Whicker who was jetting off to all these exotic places and we watched in awe from the TV, and now everyone can travel. Whicker is effectively redundant, because we all go to these glamorous places and I felt a bit guilty and thought about the huge numbers of people being paraded and herded through these ancient monuments – how long are they going to last?
 
Bettany: It’s so hard that because everybody…
 
Digger: Has a right to see them?
 
Bettany: Yes, it’s a cultural world but if everybody did it they wouldn’t last long. That’s’ where the Internet can be possibly helpful because you can have somebody being a guide and showing you archaeological discoveries that, as a private person, you’d never get a chance to see. And it can be as good as going there, I think, if it’s filmed. So the Internet can be an ally there.
 
Digger: And the telly. I mean your programmes are an eye opener and you have a lot of support from the American channels like PBS.
 
Bettany: Yes, PBS and History Channel and Discovery Channel (laughs) and the American public seem to like it so that’s great.

 

A. J. P. Taylor

 

Digger: You’re a bit different from A. J. P. Taylor that’s for sure.
 
Bettany: Well, possibly although actually somebody was saying that some of the older programmes of mine are just liked illustrated lectures in that you’re just standing up and lecturing. No drama or CGI which a lot of telly now has.
 
Digger: (Laughs) Have you seen the Mitchell and Webb sketch of the historian with his flailing arms as he describes the Battle of Britain?
 
Bettany: (Laughs) No.
 
Digger: They have to tie him up in the end. (Both laugh) Here’s the link to the video

Bettany: It’s interesting though because possibly the most interesting thing I do and the one I most enjoy is standing and doing public lecturing. I do a lot of that and it’s great because I love the immediacy of the feedback.

 

 
Digger: The interaction.
 
Bettany: Yes, yes, yes.
 
Digger: Are you nervous to start with?
 
Bettany: I’m very much like a head girl in that I won’t do anything unless I’m incredibly well prepared. I hate winging stuff and that’s not something I enjoy at all. So as long as I’ve had long enough to prepare something that is really worthwhile. People are giving up an hour of their time, so you want to give them some unique information. Then I’m not nervous but I think if I feel I could have had another day to prepare then I would be nervous.
 
Digger: A good trick, as you know, is to bounce it back to the audience which gives you a chance for a breather and can take the pressure off.
 
Bettany: Yes, yes.
 
Digger: In my view history is now seen as more accessible and sexy than it used to be. What would you say to budding historians in terms of their best route into it?
 
Bettany: It sounds a kind of cliché really but I’d just say follow your passion. Because, when I was starting out, everybody was trying to dissuade me from doing history and classics. They said it was a dead language or a dead subject and you won’t get anywhere and it was completely unsexy. The one thing that really annoys me is when people say Bettany did this to get on telly and the fame and fortune. I mean, the idea when I first started learning medieval Latin at sixteen that it would lead to anything glamorous was so entirely, completely impossible that if anything I thought I’d be stuck in archives all my life and I loved the idea of that. So I think you should do it because you love it and not because of where it might take you in the world. Just follow your passion in whatever it is in the human story and you’ll end up having a fulfilling life.
 
Digger: A lot of the people who promote on my website share that – a passion for what they are doing and they seem to be full of good humour and humanity and enjoyment for what they’re doing.
 
Bettany: I think that’s the thing and how can you not be when, for example, here I am sitting in my office. I’m a terrible hoarder and I keep everything and I pick stuff up at junk shops and car boot sales and have done that since I was about nine. It’s because everything tells a story and everything has passed through someone else’s hands and it’s like a postcard from lives of the past.
 
Digger: My dad worked for an oil company in the 60s until his death in '73 and spent a lot of time in Iraq and Lebanon and Nigeria. You would have loved some of the stuff he filled our house with.
 
Bettany: Exactly and you’re not alone when you’re surrounded by all those objects. I think they have a resonance. It’s almost like they’re company, I think. I collect Meakin china and it was just the sort of stuff people were throwing out 25 years ago and now it’s become collectable. So if any of your readers have any in their back room or know where there is some then please can they let me know? I'll relieve them of it. (Laughs)

     

Wall paintings at Thera

 

Digger: We'll spread the word. You should also mention it on your Facebook and Twitter pages... Why do all empires and great civilisations die?
 
Bettany: I think it's interestingly almost the same answer as the answer to the first question. It's that we almost fail to develop a kind of self-regulating thing where we don't push ourselves too far. We still always try - that's what civilisation is in a way, it's wanting more, it's ravening for a bit more. For a bit of land or one more artwork or one other experience.

Digger: Like that cheeky guy in France yesterday who nicked all of those paintings?!

Bettany: Yes! Amazing.

Digger: What a debacle!

Bettany: Ridiculous. So that's a very good side of human nature but they almost don't know when to stop.

Digger: Do they also over-extend - the Romans are a case in point and they also become a bit complacent as well?

Bettany: I think it's complacency and ennui, a kind of boredom almost that sets in, oddly. I think what's exciting in life is what you look forward to, and once you've got it, as we all know, it becomes less interesting and I think that's the something else that happens to empires as well. And, whether we like it or not and we all like to think we're very individualistic we're such...

Digger: Clichés.

Bettany: Exactly, we always pick up if one lot of us is feeling depressed and wants to give up then that spreads like a kind of virus through the community. In a positive way it's like smoking. At one time we said we couldn't imagine ever giving up and then suddenly, almost collectively as a nation, we decided we were going to stop.

 

   

Homer and Boris Johnson

 

Digger: Did you ever?

Bettany: I did when I was younger and lived in Brighton and I thought it was so ridiculous that I was lighting up in order to walk to work along the beach at Brighton, filling my lungs through one nostril with fresh sea air and through the other with tobacco. (Both laugh) 

Digger: So you weren't a 'proper' smoker?

Bettany: No, but I still occasionally think "Gosh, that would be so, so nice." 

Digger: I still miss them. I was on thirty to forty a day but that was over 27 years ago now.

Bettany: Wow! Good for you.

Digger: I don't dare be too proud of it because it will swell my head! You mentioned Latin. Now, I did Latin at school and it's amazing how often that still comes in useful. 

 

 

 

 

Bettany: Yes, incredibly. When you can't quite understand a word and then you remember what the Latin root of it meant. I did a thing with Boris which was very successful where we got Latin back into state schools and I now think we ought to get a bit of Greek. I do it with my kids and they learn words like hexagon and pentagon and it doesn't mean anything to them so if they taught them one to ten in Greek suddenly maths would be much easier.

Digger: What languages have you got?

Bettany: Obviously ancient Greek, a bit of modern Greek, Latin and Italian. And I can speak French. I can kind of make my way incredibly slowly through cuneiform and Hebrew but only with 100 dictionaries around me. That's the thing, when I manage eventually to not be working virtually every hour of every day, that's one thing I want to do is broaden my language base.

Digger: When I had a 'proper job' in a 'previous life' in the eighties, I supported in IT and the users were in Latin America. So I'd get a call in the middle of the night from a guy in a bank branch whose computer system had died on him and who didn't speak English and I didn't speak Spanish. And we'd spend hours trying to understand each other with me shouting in English and him in Spanish and us both getting more frustrated and cross. So I thought "This is ridiculous" and enrolled me and the team on a Spanish course. Then I could ask the user "Cuales el mensaje de error?" and tell him "Es necesario cambiar la cinta y ponar opcion dos por favor."  And thus we got on like a house on fire and it opened it all up and when I went over there on business we were really sociable. It makes that whole bit of difference being able to speak a language when you visit and it's so rewarding.

Bettany: Absolutely, absolutely. Yes, I agree it makes a big difference. One thing with my kids, wherever we go in the world and whichever country we go to I always make sure they can do at least 'Please, thank you, how interesting, it's beautiful, I'm full.' (Both laugh) You know? Just so that it can make that massive difference and show respect.

Digger: Okay Bettany, interrogation over. I'm going to write this all up and send it over...

Bettany: Great, send it over and I'll have a look. 

Digger: Have a good time this afternoon and I'll be in touch. Thanks Bettany.

Bettany: Lovely. Thank you. Bye.

   

 

 

Some images courtesy of and © copyright Channel 4 TV

 

 

 

 

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