You are in the Special Features section - Michelle Phillips Interview

(18:30 in UK, 10:30 in LA)

Digger: Hello Michelle.

Michelle: Hello David. Sorry for the delay this morning. I had my family staying here and they're off to New York this morning.

Digger: No problem, family takes priority.

Michelle: I had my daughter, Chynna, here and her husband Billy and their three children staying over. They asked me if I could stay at my dear sweet boyfriend's house while they slept over and I said "No problem" and didn't even look at my calendar.

Digger: How old are these grandkids?

Michelle: My oldest grandchild is named Jameson... as in the whisky. It's kind of a direct line through to her grandmother who loves Jameson whisky!

Digger: And the middle child is called 'Morgan' and the youngest 'Gordon' I suppose?!

Michelle: (laughs) That would have been very funny. Then I have a 7 year-old grandson named Vance. And a 4 year-old granddaughter named... ugh... (laughs) I always want to call her Page. Er... a 4 year year-old granddaughter whose name... is... I'm having a senior moment here and I hope we don't have too many of those.

Digger: (laughs) Don't worry. I get them all the time at 51. I find myself in a room and have to retrace my steps to remind myself why I'm in there.

Michelle: (laughs) It's okay, I'll come up with it in a minute...

Digger: It's this thing with the brain that I can remember what happened 40 years ago but not what I had for breakfast. 

Michelle: That's exactly correct, yes. Her name is Brooke!

Digger: Why did you want to say Page?

Michelle: Well, because I had a daughter named Page on Knott's Landing. Nicola Sheridan was my daughter Page on the show. So somehow I was on the show for so long that I always think that one of my offspring is named Page.

Digger: (laughs) That's spooky that the character takes over in your consciousness isn't it?

Michelle: Yeah, yeah.

Digger: I'm going to dive into the questions as there's a lot of them and I'm conscious of your time and they could take quite a while... 

Michelle: Okay. And If my 'phone rings, I will just take you into the other room. I will NOT be answering the 'phone.

Digger: Oh, well done!... For someone who didn’t intend to embark on a musical career that was some musical career, wasn’t it?! 

Michelle: (laughs) Well, you know I was dragged kicking and screaming into my wonderful musical career. I had never seriously for a MINUTE considered going on stage. All I wanted to do was hang out with the ban... you know, the groups, we didn't even call them bands at the time. I wanted to hang out with them and drink in the clubs. You know, I was seventeen when I met John. 

Digger: And normally the guys in the groups went into groups so they could get the girls, didn't they?

Michelle: Yes, yes and sit around and drink Brandy Alexanders in my 3-inch heels and my little kid gloves. (laughs)

Digger: Do you remember the precise moment when you got into the musical scene ... what was that defining moment?

Michelle: Well, I remember that we were going through the Holland Tunnel in New York and John said "You know, Michelle, when I put the group back together..." because he had a group called The Journeymen and the group had just broken up. And he said "When I put the group back together you're going to be in it." And I thought he was kidding. He said "No, I'm not kidding." And I said "Well, why on EARTH would you even think of that?" and he said "Well, its' the only way we can justify your expenses on the road." (Both laugh) 

Digger: Had he heard you sing at that point? In the shower or something?

Michelle: I had always sang. John would make everybody sing. If you were sitting around with John and he had his guitar strapped to him as he always did, er, and he would say "Mitch, come over here and sing this part."  So I would sing a part for him and then he'd say "Okay, so Scott, you sing this part... Denny, you sing this part... 2, 3, 4..." And then we'd sing the parts and he'd say "Thank you!" (laughs) 

Digger: You must have passed the audition.

Michelle: Well, it was just a part of our daily lives and we all just sang for fun. And John sang all day long. I'd be in making a pot of spaghetti and he'd say "Mitch come out here and sing this part." It WAS fun and a very light-hearted time. The Journeymen were a very successful group and they were always on the road. We lived in New York City and we did very well. We weren't rich but we lived in a very nice high-rise building.

Digger: In the village. Or overlooking Central Park?...

  Various studies of Michelle

Michelle: It was uptown! (laughs) It was at 72nd and 2nd, uptown east-side and, you know, I was modelling, and doing well as a model. So I always had lots of spending money. So the LAST thing I wanted to do was work. Because modelling wasn't really work. It was fun. But then just as I was about to sign a three-year exclusive contract with Kaiser Rock, which is a lingerie firm, that's when John hit me with the news about singing. And I said "I don't want to sing." And he said "Well I promise you'll make a lot more money." (laughs)

Digger: So you went for it even though you had the offer of the three years.

Michelle: Yes... John was VERY forceful about anything he wanted. We came back to California in June of '64 and I started to take singing lessons from Judy Davis. She was like THE gal in san Francisco, you know, she was a vocal coach for The Kingston trio and Peter, Paul and Mary, so she was the gal who taught you how to sing without hurting your vocal chords. And helped you get a little more range, helped you stay in tune. (laughs) All those things that might help! (laughs)

Digger: Can you tell us about your love of Mexico? And what does California mean to you? 

Michelle: Well, I was raised in Mexico City from right after the time when my mother died when I was five. When I was six I lived there while my father went to college. An unusual childhood.

Digger: It's quite odd in a way that there's probably not anyone with more of a west-coasty American look and not a Latino look than you, so you would have stood out.

Michelle: Well, I did! (both laugh) I certainly did stand out. A blonde, blue-eyed, pale-skinned girl and I had a wonderful time in Mexico. My sister and I both learnt to speak fluent Spanish as we went to a Mexican school, so when I came back I really had to learn to read English when I was about twelve. I could speak English but there were certain gaps in my vocabulary like almost every other language that I try to speak. But when John and I moved back from New York and bought a house in California I got a Mexican housekeeper and from that day on I started speaking Spanish on a daily basis. My Spanish got even better. 

Digger: And your English didn't improve much at all?!

Michelle: (laughs) I still can't spell. I don't DARE leave the country or my house without my Webster's dictionary. 

Digger: They've got these machines now that can, theoretically, translate phrases for you...

Michelle: They do, I bought one for my sister. They don't have much of a range. But I can actually spell better in Spanish because it's all phonetic.

Digger: Yes. It's just a more logical language. English must be a nightmare to learn if you're a foreigner because it's just so illogical.

Michelle: It doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Digger: In Spanish you can get away with three tenses, can't you. And things are generally pronounced how they look.

Michelle: Uh huh. Actually, I'm going straight back to Mexico next Saturday. I just got back but I have a little house there now so now all I want to do is spend time in Mexico. 

Digger: And why not? So what does California mean to you?

Michelle: Well, it's where I was BORN. And where I raised my children. And GOD, it doesn't snow here. I mean, California Dreamin' was written really because I did nothing but BITCH the whole time we were in New York. I bitched constantly about the weather.

Digger: So you couldn't live in the UK?

Michelle: I could not live in the UK, although when I went to the UK to write my book with Derek Taylor we were staying at a little Inn - I can't remember the name of the town Derek lived in. It was north of London about two hours away. He had a beautiful country house and a river ran underneath it. 

Digger: It must have been near Birmingham.

Michelle: Yes! It was near Birmingham.

Digger: Probably Shakespeare country - that is truly beautiful.

Michelle: We went there January 1st and stayed there for ten days while we did the first interviews for the book.

Digger: And you froze your bits off?

Michelle: Well, actually it was interesting the way they did it because they couldn't heat the whole house.

Digger: Oh, that's a very English thing.

Michelle: Yeah, so they would put in a huge fire in the fireplace in the den and we would sit there for hours in this cozy den and I remember we would keep the beer and the Guinness and the stout and the lagers and everything outside the window. (laughs)

Digger: You're a heat and sun person, which doesn't come as any surprise really.

Michelle: Well, I don't go in the sun but I don't like it to be cold. I'm looking out of my window and it's probably the same in England right now...

Digger: No it's not! It's July and it's cloudy and there's 'slight precipitation'. 

Michelle: Well, it's about 88 degrees here and blue skies and a tiny, tiny breeze and my garden is in full bloom.

Digger: What have you got growing there?

Michelle: Ooh, I don't know... a lot of roses and geraniums and then these blue things but I don't know what they're called. 

Digger: Is it a shrub?

Michelle: Well, they're like great big flowers.

Digger: There's something called the Californian Lilac, Latin name Ceanothus, which is blue. Or maybe they're blue hydrangeas.

Michelle: I leave all this to my wonderful gardener Cristobal. You know, I love my house and I love my neighbourhood and I love my neighbours and I'm close enough to see them every day if I wanted to. And Chynna and Billy are an hour away up the Pacific Coast Highway. I just went up there last week and spent a day with them.

Digger: There’s a classic photo of The Mamas and The Papas all showing-off their new cars – E-Type Jags and so on. How much of a petrol-head are you? 

Michelle: Not much. The car that I drive almost every day is a hybrid. A Ford Explorer. 

Digger: Is it four-wheel drive? 

Michelle: No, we don't need four-wheel drive here. 

Digger: The mums here all seem to drive them whether they need them or not. 

Michelle: Thank GOD I have no more kids to take to school. (laughs) I have an absolutely beautiful 560 Mercedes and when I feel like taking the top off of the 560 and motoring up the coast I have that too. I also have the first car that I ever bought on my own which is a 1970 Mercedes 250c. people think I'm crazy to keep these cars but I got the car in 1969 and it kind of represented my freedom when John  and I split up. The first thing I did was buy a new car. (laughs) So I get kind of attached to my cars. 

Digger: So you're a sort of petrol-head in a way?

Michelle: I am. But I have three cars which is many too many for one person. I can't... what am I to do? 

Digger: You can only drive one at any one time. Do you pay road tax for each of them over there?

Michelle: They all have their own practical purpose. The tax we pay is minimal. We wouldn't be in this fiscal mess right now if, as Governor Davis had suggested, before Schwarzenegger, they had increased the registration fee. They panned poor Davis out of office and now we're giving I.O.U's to state workers. Everyone wants to have these services and noone wants to pay for them. Considering that we give less than 1% of our GDP to the third world I don't think that we are the most generous country in the world with their money. (laughs) 

Digger: I don't know. Maybe the new man's going to make a big difference over time. 

Michelle: Yeah, I hope so. It's not going to happen overnight.

Digger: He's got to be better than the last one anyway.

Michelle: Oh my God! I feel like I've come out of an eight-year bad dream.

Digger: I've got American friends who to a man and a woman were always embarrassed about Bush but somebody had to have voted for him!

Michelle: I still have the wonderful front page of the Mirror newspaper from England - it said How can 59 million people be so stupid? (laughs) I kept it, I love that and still have it.

Digger: (laughs) The British press don't 'beat around the bush' do they?! 

Michelle: The English can be so direct and I like that.

Digger: There was a Labour party leader called Neil Kinnock who The Sun newspaper had taken a strong dislike to and didn't want him to win the election as Prime Minister, and there was a good chance that he might win. They had a cover of his head as a light bulb and the headline read "If Kinnock wins today, would the last person to leave Britain please switch off the lights?" He didn't get in because that headline made people think again and change their minds. The power of the press.

Digger: Was there a cross-pollination of ideas and musical styles and invention going on between The Mamas and The Papas and their American and British contemporaries?

Michelle: Well, I'll tell you one thing. That the first night when we were trying to get out of folk music and into whatever this was that was coming out of Britain. I don't think we even called it the British Invasion at that point. But The Beatle... the first night we ever took acid (laughs) we heard our first Beatles album. It was such an eye opener. We wanted to do commercial music but we just didn't know exactly what it was. And it wasn't folk anymore. We knew we had to get out of folk music as it was dying a quick death but when we listened to that Beatles album, and it wasn't the first Beatles album - I don't know WHERE we were when the first Beatles album came out. It was the second Beatles album and our jaws just DROPPED and I remember Denny was the one who said "Now, we wanna be doing more stuff like this." And John and I had already written California Dreamin' but it had more of a folksy feel to it when we were playing it with that one guitar.

Digger: I don't suppose anything of that original 'demo' still exists?

Michelle: Are you kidding? There's nothing left. Every burp has been reproduced on some kind of anthology. I mean, the worst stuff we ever did has been dragged out and put on albums. Disgusting! It makes you wanna crawl under a rock sometimes when you hear this stuff.

Digger: When I listen to your material I can't see any close comparisons between what was coming out of the UK and your stuff. What were the influences? 

Michelle: You know John's strong suit was really vocal arrangements. And so that was never gonna go away. He was very, very influenced by jazz groups like The Hi-Lo's and all those groups from the 50s. And he really knew what he was doing. I mean, he would hear a part and then hear the next part and then he would hear the next part. So John started to write more in a feel - such as when he wrote Go Where You Wanna Go, in a more commercial feel. He was starting to understand that a bit more and he was also learning a lot of new chords. (laughs) I was being 'beaten up' because I had some parts that were so difficult that even professional singers found them difficult to sing. 

Digger: That must have been intimidating.

Michelle: It was. And Cass was so experienced and that was her life to be on stage. But she wanted to do musical comedy and be on Broadway. That's really where she was headed when she ran into us.

Digger: She was another one who came into it kicking and screaming?

Michelle: Well, yes and no. Because once we all ended up in Los Angeles and we went to sing for Lou Adler and he said "Why don't you guys come back tomorrow." Because we had sung him, basically, the first album and he was VERY cool. Mr Cool. And he said "Come back tomorrow and we'll talk about it." And the next day at the studio the contracts were all over the floor (laughs) - he managed to hang onto our publishing. But the minute that the opportunity arose that we were going to work - I mean, this was a label offering us a deal. You would jump that old Mont Blanc so fast because you wanted to work.

Digger: Broke, busted, disgusted and agents can't be trusted. A gift horse.

Michelle: Yeah. So we just signed right on so the next thing we knew we were signed to Dunhill records. 

Digger: I cannot talk to you without asking about those harmonies. Can you take us through an example of how they developed in one of your specific songs? Typically how many takes would you need to get a song recorded. 

Michelle: Well... that's a very difficult question to answer because it varied from song to song so much. When we did Words Of Love, for instance, it was a song that Cass did not want to sing the lead on. And John said "No, you have to sing the lead on it." And she didn't want to do it. She said "No, let Michelle sing the lead on it." and I was mortified (both laugh) I am NOT singing the lead on this song. I mean it was kind of a Sophie Tucker sort of song and I don't know why Cass didn't want to sing the lead on it. It was right up her alley. But finally John said "Cass. Go stand on top of that piano..." There was a grand piano in the studio. He said "I want you to get up on that piano and stand up there, take the mike with you and I want you to belt out this song." And that's what she did, she did one take (laughs) and on the original you can hear her drop the mike at the end. 

Digger: There are a few funny noises on a number of your tracks. 

Michelle: (laughs) Noises everywhere!

Digger: I mean, with modern technology it's true isn't it. Those sixties songs are now played on equipment that couldn't have been anticipated which picks up papers being turned, rustling, breathing, footsteps, background conversations - all sorts.

Michelle: Yeah. As a matter of fact you can still hear a little bit of... what's his name?...

Digger: Barry McGuire?

Michelle: Barry McGuire. You can still hear a little bit of Barry McGuire on California Dreamin'. 

Digger: I've heard that. And coincidentally there's the end of Creeque Alley where the line that ends "California Dreamin' is becoming a reality" is partially repeated from an earlier take on the tape.

The Mamas and The Papas

Michelle: We gave Barry the song to start with as a kind of thank you for bringing us together with Lou. So we did the track and we put the backgrounds on it first and Barry put kind of a working lead on it and then we came in with the backgrounds and then he went back in and put a lead on it and the harmonica. Lou took me and John out to a hallway at Western studio three and he said "We're not giving him this song." (Both laugh) And I didn't really think too much about it at the time - you don't have that hindsight. At the time I just said "Okay, fine." And Lou said "This is going to be your first single." 

Digger: And it must be so difficult to predict what's going to be a hit. There's no secret formula.

Michelle: No. But, you know, somebody asked me the other day if that was unkind to Barry McGuire and I said "Well, Lou did the releasing and if we had gone into that studio and if P.F. Sloan had come in with Eve Of Destruction and said "Who wants to sing this? The Mamas and The Papas or Barry McGuire?" Lou Adler would definitely have said Barry". I mean, he had that knack to know who was going to sing it better.

Digger: That was his job.

Michelle: Yeah, he had that great ear. I remember one time we were in the studio trying to work some song out - I forget what it was - and we were wasting a lot of money in studio time (laughs) and Lou came out and said "Why don't you take the instrumental and put it after the third verse and then come back in and do the second verse after the instrumental..." And we said "Er, okay..." And it worked perfectly. He had a great ear and the truth is, if it hadn't been for Barry McGuire there may never have been any Mamas and Papas.

Digger: Do you send him a commission from time to time?

Michelle: (laughs) No.

Digger: I don't think you should feel remotely guilty at all. At the end of the day it's a business, all's fair in love and war and Lou made the right decision.

Michelle: Yeah, well he was a good friend of ours from the folk days, even before the New Christie Minstrels, which he was a part of, he was in a group called Barry and Barry.

Digger: Which one was he? 

Michelle: (laughs) I'm not sure. Now this is probably taking us back to 1960. It's funny how relationships brought people together and if it weren't for Cass Elliot there would probably not be any Crosby, Stills and Nash. She was the one who introduced them all up at her house and brought them all together. And they would play and sing and write and they became a group.

Digger: It's quite an unlikely collaboration at first glance but how well it worked. If you hadn’t been a model, an actress or a singer, what do you think you might have been?

Michelle: A spy.

Digger: (laughs) Why?

Michelle: I just always thought that being a spy would be a good idea. Or a prostitute. I remember my father and I were having a very philosophical conversation once about what I would like to do as an adult and I said. "Well, I was thinking maybe I'd like to be a prostitute." (laughs) And he said "Oh really? Why is that?" and I said "Well, I was watching a movie and you get to have your own T'bird and your own hairdryer." Which seemed like reason enough when I was eleven years-old. 

Digger: You know there was that joke about the Irish family and a Catholic girl comes home and her slightly-deaf dad was horrified when he thought she was going to be a Protestant but quite happy when he realised she had misheard and she said she was going to be a prostitute? 

Michelle: You know, I think my father told me that joke... or I may have gone to sea and joined the WAVES. I was thinking a lot about what I was going to do in my life and certainly I was going to travel. I didn't think about having a lot of money but I wanted independence.

Digger: You'd need money for that but at that age you don't realise.

Michelle: You don't realise that the WAVES don't pay that much. I remember seeing a billboard when I was about twelve or thirteen years-old and there was a WAVE, and all the WAVES are female, and there she was in a very smart little uniform and it said See The World, Become A WAVE. I had my own Private Benjamin moment.

Digger: What have been your biggest achievements and what would you still like to accomplish? 

Michelle: I think just working all my life is a great achievement. I was so fortunate after The Mamas and The Papas and my divorce from John I obviously wasn't going to go back into music because I wasn't going to try to put a group together. I didn't even like singing that much. I loved hearing what we did but GOD was it hard work. And this is not my strongest suit, the hard work stuff. Then when I got into acting I LOVED acting and I've done it for 25 years. I've done so many different things - I've done film and TV, I've danced with Nureyev. I was kind of fearless - before Ken Russell cast me in Valentino he said "Do you know how to dance because you're going to have to dance with Nureyev if I cast you." And I said "Ah! Are you kidding? Can I DANCE? I was born dancing, it's second nature to me." (laughs) And I was at that dance studio the next morning after he'd asked me taking private lessons to tango. I was and always have been fearless - whatever it took. I don't jump out of airplanes  or stuff like that but I can take a challenge. And when I started acting a lot I took a lot of acting workshops. It's just amazing and a few years ago I wrote to Aaron Spelling and I said "I just want you to know that we've been working together for 25 years." (laughs) And he was always great with me. He wrote me back and told me what a pleasure it had been to be working with me for 25 years. And I have a great family. I think of one of your greatest achievements has got to be, if you're working, to be able to raise the family with some decency and pride. That is a great achievement. My daughter Chynna was easy but then when I had the boys, they were like hell on wheels. 

Digger: If they were anything like me - I was a right bastard when I was a teenager. 

Michelle: (laughs) Oh my God, I thought we were all going to go to prison.

Digger: Are you nostalgic or do you tend to look forward? Do you keep memorabilia and mementoes?  

Michelle: I do keep memorabilia because if I don't then noone would. I'm not really nostalgic and I don't look back on any of it. I keep it in chests, quite organised, near the door! I have a eucalyptus tree quite near the door because I read a Chinese fortune cookie once which said "Wise man who has eucalyptus tree near house keeps valuables near door." They're extremely flammable.

Digger: Do you think the sixties has left us with a legacy and if so how does this manifest itself?  

Michelle: Well, it's left us with an abundance of music which we have not seen since. Maybe before or since. It was just an explosion.

Digger: It was coming from all angles, wasn't it?

Michelle: And it wasn't just music. Fashion, mini skirts, Twiggy eyes, go-go boots and a political revolution too. It definitely was a shift of the tectonic plates that we haven't witnessed before or since and everything was changing. And I would say for the better. The opposition to the war in Vietnam and people taking to the streets. This was not just the United States, this was Paris and London... and the whole London scene was just so dramatic. I bought some great clothes in London. (laughs)

Digger: Have you still got them?

Michelle: I gave most of my clothes to the rock and roll hall of fame because when they asked me if I had anything I could give them I was so happy to get this crap out of my garage. (Digger laughs) You can only do mothballs for so long. They're worth something in a historical perspective but who'd want to wear them?

Digger: Have you seen the brilliant parody of The Mamas and The Papas that French and Saunders did? Jennifer Saunders might be familiar to you via Absolutely Fabulous.

Michelle: (laughs) She did not?!! 

Digger: I'll send you the link - it's on YouTube. Or just type "French and Saunders Mamas and Papas" in the YouTube search. Link here

Michelle: I can't wait to see this! First of all, I have the ENTIRE collection of Ab Fab and we have had Ab Fab parties here at my house that start at ten in the morning and we get totally drunk and we just watch episode after episode after episode. (laughs) I know a group of very bad girls.

Digger: Are they spies and prostitutes?

Michelle: Oh yes, every last one of them. (laughs) And we just love to watch Ab Fab. I am so glad you told me about this. 

Digger: There was a complex dynamic in The Mamas and The Papas. This generated a great body of work nevertheless, but is there anything you’d change about those 2 ½  years?  

Michelle: Er... The problem is that if you change things, for example I might say that I'd have not had the affair with Denny. But then we would not have the songs. Because we THRIVED on dissent...

Digger: It was the sixties and you were young, attractive people.

Michelle: Yeah, I mean all of these songs were autobiographical. And I Saw Her Again, Go Where You Wanna Go and suchlike were all about (laughs) my infidelities actually. 

Digger: Oh dear! (both laugh)

Michelle: But if you change that dynamic then you don't have the songs anymore.

Digger: Good answer!

Michelle: I'd rather have the publishing.

Digger: What would Michelle in 1966 make of iPods, the Internet and SatNav if she was given a sneak preview? What does she make of them now?  

Michelle: I don't know what to make of it now. (Digger laughs) People are always saying to me "You've got to get a computer, Michelle, this is ridiculous." 

Digger: You're probably the sort of person who when someone tells you you've got to then you dig your heels in.

Michelle: This is true. And I have so much to do. I always tell my friends and family "If you want to reach me, you can send me a postcard." 

Digger: You know, in London in the Victorian days, people would go to the seaside for day trips. They would send a postcard back to the folks in London telling them what time they'd be home for tea. The postal service was so good and regular then. Not these days.

Michelle: I love the postal service. I think it's just the greatest deal on earth that you can send a letter from Los Angeles, California to New York City for 44 cents. What greater deal on earth is there? It's good value.

Digger: What makes you laugh?

Michelle: Everything. I'm by disposition a very happy person and I can be with my grandchildren and laugh all day. I can be with my boyfriend and laugh all night. (laughs) I'm just a very happy person.

Digger: What makes you angry?

Michelle: I can go to the obvious things like hypocrisy and injustice and racism and bigotry. Those things. I think you have to be a full-hearted person. You have to have a big heart and that includes having a big life and participating. I never stop travelling...

Digger: Absorbing stuff?

Michelle: Yeah, and I'm so lucky I can do it.

Digger: What makes you hopeful?  

Michelle: Well, I'll tell you. The Obama Presidency makes me very hopeful. He is not doing exactly what I want him to do, which is my biggest problem. I think I should be running the world. And when someone does not do exactly what I want them to do, I get very frustrated. 

Digger: He's scuppered because there are so many expectations from a huge variety of agendas. He has also come in at the worst possible time, both financially and also because of the wreckage left by that idiot whose been there for the last eight years.

Michelle: He walked into possibly the worst situation that any American President or foreign has ever walked into.

Digger: But when you see him in action and hear him talking there's an intellect there.

Michelle: He's so bright. That's what gives me hope. Is that I can listen to a man who obviously reads and comprehends and has empathy and humour. I'm very proud that finally the United Sates has come out of this terrible... I think finally Americans have said we were duped. Because, basically we're a stupid people. He may help to change that.

Digger: I don't think the Americans are any more stupid than any other nationality. 

Michelle: I don't know! (laughs)

Digger: Gerry Springer is popular here and he hosted an 'alternating' show which was based in London one week and New York the next. They asked 'Joe public' on the street a series of the same easy general knowledge questions, and the British came out as stupid as the Americans.

Michelle: Really? Well, there you go, I guess you just take responsibility for your own folk. (both laugh)

Digger: Yes, I think that's a natural tendency... What do you think of the demise of album cover artwork as a result of the CD format and MP3? 

Michelle: Yeah, Tom Wilkes just died. He did the artwork for the Monterey Pop Festival and then he went on to do all of A&M and all of everybody. And I was thinking about that just yesterday as a matter of fact. There are no more liner notes really or great album covers. I mean, we used to take such PRIDE in the imagination and the execution of a cover. A great cover was half the battle.

Digger: Yes, yes. You can't judge a book by its cover, but you could theoretically with albums.

Michelle: Yes, exactly. And that's kind of sad. Maybe it will be replaced by something we as yet don't know about. I think it's really sad that we don't have great big vinyl records and great big covers. (laughs)

Digger: What do you listen to?

Michelle: I listen to a lot of classical music and a lot of pop radio. I may sound very boring but I was raised on classical music and I do love my Rachmaninov and my Mendelssohn and my Mahler. And I listen to Air America. All pinko/red/communist talk radio.

Digger: I know. People with opinions?

Michelle: Yeah.

Digger: Who would you invite to a dinner party of guests, living or dead, real or fictional, and why? 

Michelle: I have very interesting dinners. I invite Bill Maher, Ariana Huvington, Bob Shea and his wife Eva, George Segal.

Digger: Are these wild dinner parties?

Michelle: They are, and generally they are no bigger than twelve people and it's a round table, like King Arthur's, so they're forced to face each other. And it's really fun and I have great, great friends I have to say. And there's the art of the dinner party. Choosing the right people with the right meal. And I happen to be quite a good little chef. I had a great big dinner party last October and I made my Oktoberfest dinner and I had 30 people. Now let me tell you something, I live in a really small house and this party went off without a hitch. It was so well-planned. The answer to the 30 people for the same dinner. Staff - lots of staff. And I make sour brauten.

Digger: I don't know what that is.

Michelle: Sour brauten is a German brisket and it's marinated for eight days and you just have to make sure you have a really full bar and get everyone really drunk. (laughs) But I do make the best sour brauten in Los Angeles because I had a German step-mother once. And people CLAMBER - in August I'm getting calls "Can I come to your Oktoberfest party?"

Digger: Another career.

Michelle: Yes,  my father always said if the acting ever dried-up he would open up a restaurant with me.
 

Digger: Can I ask you to describe the following in a few words? Cass Elliot...

Michelle: Cass Elliot could deliver a lyric with a heart and soul of a black field hand. She has this uncanny ability to interpret a song. That's why I always say that Barbra Streisand couldn't possibly have sung Dream A Little Dream Of Me and the reason she's never done it is because she could never do it better than Cass. She doesn't have the capacity to do that - she can hold a note for a long time and frankly that holds no interest for me whatsoever. But she cannot interpret a lyric the way that Cass can.

Digger: From the British perspective, and with your reference to the black sound, I agree with you but I'd also say we produced Dusty Springfield who could also do a similar thing.

Michelle: Dusty was GREAT. What made her a great star was the interpretation of the lyric. The same with Frank Sinatra. I mean, Frank always added heart to the lyric and the fact that he could phrase like nobody's business - nobody did it better. And Cass died in 1974 and Sinatra came onto the scene in the 30's so they are very few and far between. People who actually just grab your heart-strings and, yes, Dusty was one of them.

Digger: Proper stars as well.

Michelle: I just don't see any new raw talent like that. There is one singer and her album is just coming out now. Her name is Beth Hart and her album is being sold on the Internet and she is GREAT. And people compare her to Janis Joplin but this is a woman who writes her own material. Janis didn't do that. And I have a lot of respect for Janis but this girl takes it a lot further and she has just got great, great soul and she really knows how to write a lick.

Digger: Can you describe John Phillips?

Michelle: Tall. (very long silence. Both laugh)  He was amazingly talented as a vocal arranger and EXTREMELY bossy. (Digger laughs) Talk about a mister know-it-all. That was John. And he was also one of the funniest people I ever knew. 

Digger: That can move mountains.

Michelle: Yes. (laughs) Noone was spared his sardonic wit. He was very funny and very talented and he also was the leader of the band. There was no question about that. He was the one who was going to give you those parts and you better like it because he rarely listened to anybody but himself. (laughs) 

Digger: John Sebastian?

Michelle: John, I love John and Catherine. We actually took a cruise on the QE2. What fun! I mean, they make a whole career out of having fun these two. (laughs) We had every meal together and it's so much fun to travel with people who are on the same wavelength as you are and who just wanna have fun and get out the old guitar and the banjo and sing and play. They're basically on the same wavelength as I am. "Where's the next cocktail and the next meal?" (laughs)

Digger: Denny Doherty?

Michelle: Oh, bless his heart. Denny was the trooper of all time. When we first met him he was in a group called The Halifax Three and when we needed a tenor we set-out to find Denny because we'd heard the Halifax Three had just broken-up and within a couple of days he showed-up at our door and he said. "I hear you're looking for a tenor." That was in those days when these sorts of things happened, you know? "Knock knock, looking for a tenor?..."  (laughs) And he had one of the most melodic voices in rock and roll or folk or any style. He was an Irish Catholic choirboy who, once again, knew how to interpret  a lyric and there was just noone like him. He was certainly one of the nicest people in the whole world and you could always count on Denny. You could call him up in the middle of the night and he was always there for you. Except, you know, when he signed me out of the group. (both laugh) When the group ended he went back to Halifax and he promptly got himself a show in Canada called Denny's show - he was a businessman - and it ran for a few years and was a musical show. He was very funny with a dry wit. He then started acting and he had never done a day's acting in his life and he was doing the Royal Shakespearian Theatre.

Digger: It's odd how many musicians go into acting. Maybe musicians need to act in a way?

Michelle: Well, I think that they're not that far apart, really. It's interpreting a role. Interpreting a song. It's all of those things. He did a lot of work with the Royal Shakespearian and then he got a little children's show in Halifax called Tugboat something or the other and it ended-up playing in 52 countries around the world. He was the host of the show and he played about five different other characters. So he could do all these voices and it was a HUGE success. As a matter of fact the Maritime Museum there has a whole part of the museum dedicated to the show with Denny. There was nothing that the guy couldn't do. He wasn't afraid to throw himself into anything. Including the affair with the girl of his best friend. (laughs)

Digger: I can understand why those things happened.

Michelle: We all lived together and you can't help it. You see things in each other that you love and adore and pretty soon you're playing footise under the table and, you know, one thing leads to another. 

Digger: Describe yourself.

Michelle: I think I am tenacious. And good-natured. Clean. 

Digger: (laughs) It sounds like you're advertising yourself in a classified ad.

Michelle: (laughs) Lucky, extremely lucky. And I don't know if that's something you make for yourself or if it's something that the heavens decide for you but... I'm a hard worker. And then I'm a HARD vacationer. 

Graham Nash	Rudolph Nureyev
John Sebastian	Ken Russell
Aaron Spelling	Ed Sullivan
Barry McGuire

Digger: Work hard, play hard. What about Graham Nash?

Michelle: I don't know Graham that well.

Digger: Okay. I assumed you did because I saw you two presenting a music programme a few years ago.

Michelle: We were kind of thrown together for that but I don't know him that well really. But I think he's really cute.

Digger: Yes, you said that in the programme and he said "Damn, why didn't I know that 25 years ago?"

Michelle: (laughs) I've always had a little crush on him. 

Digger: I bet he was gutted when he found out too late. (both laugh) What about Ed Sullivan?

Michelle: Ed Sullivan was absolutely nuts. (Digger laughs) He loved us. And he didn't quite know why. I don't think he quite knew how to deal with us. At one point he just kind of came over and started chatting with us after we'd done Creeque Alley. He NEVER did anything unscripted on the show. 

Digger: He never looked natural - always looked clumsy.

Michelle: He was kind of a Walter Winchell. He came to TV through radio and I guess he got the show because he had a lot of contacts and money. He knew a lot about musicians and he was willing to take a chance on his show.

Digger: To be fair, that's very true.

Michelle: Let's have these four mop heads on the show. Let's have Elvis on the show.

Digger: He also had The Spoonful and The Doors on there as well. It must have been uncomfortable for him sometimes. I wouldn't have thought it was the sort of music he appreciated.

Michelle: But I think he was pretty open-minded. It was HIS show and you did not do anything to insult him on that show. And I know that if you did you could ruin your career. He could make and break people and he knew that.

Digger: Just a few 'phone calls.

Michelle: When he said you'll never work again, unlike people like Rupert Murdoch, he really meant it and he had the authority to do it. That little Rupert Murdoch reference was just a little jab I wanted to get in! (laughs)

Digger: Can you please tell us about your current projects and what you have planned for the future?  

Michelle: Well, we are in the last gasps of making a film deal but I can't tell you the studio. It's the story of The Mamas and The Papas.

Digger: Wow. 

Michelle: I actually had a call from my attorney this morning which I missed which might be the "Okay it's done" call. You know what, it's never done until that first screening starts.

Digger: These things can have lots of false starts and go on for decades. Do you have any input into it?

Michelle: I'm a producer.

Digger: So you have a lot of control and will you be able to choose who plays who?

Michelle: I'm not sure that I will have that kind of control and this is a very big studio that we're dealing with. They don't usually give away that kind of control even to the 'producers'. It's going to be so much fun and so funny, because the story of The Mamas and The Papas is really a comedy. It's really a musical comedy.

Digger: I can't wait. Hopefully the lawyers and accountants will get their fingers out.

Michelle: Well, it has taken 25 years and so you may have been kidding but it does take that long sometimes to get a project off the ground and sometimes it takes two months. But as I heard someone says once when they were getting their academy award, he said "It's really true that films are not made, they're willed into existence. " So when it's signed and they make the announcement in the press, whooh! it will be so exciting.

Digger: What would you like your legacy to be?  

Michelle: That I was a good mother and a good friend.

Digger: Well, Michelle, that's the end of the questions and I really appreciate it. It's been great and I really enjoyed it. You were witty and generous of your time and thanks for ignoring all the calls that came in while we chatted. I hope it was good news about the movie.

Michelle: Okay, you're welcome and I hope you can patch it together and make something of it. Call me if you need to check anything.

Digger: I have a friend called, wait for it, Danny Doherty who is a hospital radio DJ. Could you do a sound-bite jingle for his show?

Michelle: Sure, no problem. Just get him to call me.

Digger: That's very kind. He'll be delighted. Take care Michelle.

Michelle: Okay David, bye bye.

Lou Adler and Michelle