You are in the Special Features section - Victor Spinetti, RSC, The Beatles

Digger chats with actor Victor Spinetti.

 

Victor Spinetti

With John and Yoko

 

Images courtesy of and © copyright www.rexfeatures.com

 

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Digger: Victor, can you tell us how the Spinettis came to be in Wales?
 
Victor: My granddad walked from Italy. He only had the money for the boat and he walked through France, working on farms for food and things. And he crossed over and ended-up working as a coalminer in south Wales.
 
Digger: Was he aiming for Wales?
 
Victor: Yes, he was. What happened was, at the turn of the century, they discovered coal in Wales and there weren’t any coalminers – they were all farmers. So just like today, when people came from Poland, Hungary and so on. All these young men came to work down in the pits.
 
Digger: Immigration has actually been going on for centuries in this country hasn’t it?
 
Victor: You could go then wherever there was work. My grandfather came to work at a pit near Swansea, the name of which I'll spare you because it's difficult to pronounce and hard for you to spell.
 
Digger: Are you a proud Welshman?
 
Victor: I don’t believe in flag waving. I’m an internationalist. And I’ll tell you about that in a minute... My grandfather walked to Wales and then he earned some money out of the miserable wages they were paid there and went back to Italy eventually. Because he was a farmer. He needed to buy a new cow and a new plough. And he said to his sons “Look, you’ll have a better life in Wales.” So my father and his brother remained. My grandfather didn’t expect them to go to school and learn Italian by an Italian-speaking teacher. They were taught English.
 
Digger: What about the religion?
 
Victor: I’m not religious. I won’t have any of it. NONE of it! I don’t – I think it’s all a load of old codswallop the lot of it. I went to a catholic school for five minutes because my father suddenly thought perhaps his eldest son should go. And the priest gave us a lecture on the evils of masturbation. He said “If you masturbate you fling your seed in the face of the holy ghost.” And I burst out laughing, thinking that the holy ghost would be saying “Oh, not again”. I was caned and sent home early and my mum was black leading the grate, which is what they did in those days. And she said “You’re home early love.” And I said “The priest said that if you masturbate you fling your seed in the face of the holy ghost” And she said “Oh, don’t got there no more.” And I never went again.
 
Digger: Good for her.
 
Victor: So I don’t have religion. My father was a communist. He was a partisan and used to sing “Keep the red flag flying” when he was drunk. (Laughs)
 
Digger: I understand that you did a couple of other jobs before you got into acting?…
 
Victor: Well no, I got into acting – this is my point about nationalism. I wanted to be a teacher. So I go to the ‘Taffymeister’ of the village who ran everything – he was a local councillor. Jobe Cool, I even remember his name. He was the guy, in charge of everything. And I said “I’d like to teach” and he said “Well, pass your exams.” And I was a bright kid and I passed the Oxford and Cambridge school certificate, which meant that I could go to either of those or whatever I chose.
 
Digger: What subjects were you doing?
 
Victor: English. Crikey, I even got a pass in maths. Because the teacher used to read us passages from Three Men In A Boat and he had a wonderfully dry English voice and he’d have us falling about laughing. In return for that - because if somebody gives you something you’ve got to give something back. That’s what’s wrong with the world now – everybody’s a taker. So I thought “Well, as he’s been so good I must pass my exams...” I got a distinction in French and in English and in History. I was very bright. I could read before I went to school, which worried my parents and nobody ever taught me to read. It was there, I don’t know why. I actually went to Monmouth public school.
 
Digger: Where did he get the money from?
 
Victor: Fish and chips! But you see, the problem is that when he was interred during the war, on the Isle of Mann, he was a kitchen worker with Charles Forte. They sat down and peeled spuds, but they let him out after ten months. What they did at that time, Churchill said “Round ‘em all up.” And they put all aliens into various places to sort them all out. Once they realised my father was no harm – he’d been here since he was five, they let him out. When my father came out he said “It was the best bloody holiday I’ve ever had in my life.” So I told the teacher I wanted to teach and he asked me what I wanted to teach. I said “I want to teach children that the planet rises at 7:10 and the planet sets at 7:45 and the sun doesn’t move.” He said “Why do you want to teach that?” and I sad “Well, if kids grow up to know that they might realise that we’re all on one planet. There’s no north or south Korea. Or Israel and Palestine. Or Russia and America. There’s one planet and we’re all on it. He said to me “Oh, that’s too radical.” Even now, I still am interested in teaching but teachers can only teach what is prescribed by the government. They can’t say what I just said. I had dinner the other night with a lawyer in whose office Barack and Michelle Obama met. I said “Tell him, next time the president of north Korea says he has a nuclear bomb, instead of saying you’ve broken the rules and running to the United Nations, tell him you’ve got one, we’ve got 10,000. What do you wanna do?” America, China, Russia, France, Britain – do you want us all to throw atom bombs at each other and we all go? Is that what you want? GROW UP. But he doesn’t say that - his hands are tied because he’s a politician.
 
Digger: It’s a cycle that you have the Cuban missile crisis, then the cold war, then the northern Ireland conflict, and as soon as something is resolved like the Berlin wall coming down or the end of apartheid then something else pops up to take its place. Like international terrorism.
 
Victor: That’s why I wanted to be a teacher and joined the local amateur dramatic society and I enjoyed it so I thought I might as well do that. It wasn’t that I wanted to be a star – I was offered Hollywood roles in my twenties, but I didn’t do it because I’m not competitive. I’m not someone who wants to be big and have things. I’d be dead now. I’ve been there and I’ve never met so many frightened people in my life.
 
Digger: Your brother…
 
Victor: Henry. He’s lovely.
 
Digger: He’s a drummer. Have you inherited the musical ability as well?
 
Victor: Well, I’ve been in lots of musicals and I can play the piano. The very name Spinetti – the man who invented the spinet was called Giacamo Spinetti according to the Oxford dictionary of music who, incidentally somebody pointed out to me (laughs) that Spinetti is in Casanova’s diaries. Spinetti said to Casanova “Tell me why is it that, in French, the article for the female sexual part is male and the male sexual part is female in gender?” And Casanova said “My dear Spinetti, it is because the one is the slave of the other.”
 
Digger: You were in a Casanova…
 
Victor: Ooh, with Tony Curtis. Do you know what he did? He said to me during the filming “You’re very strong in this aren’t you?” And I said “Well I’m playing the chief of police.” And what happened was he took the film back with him to America and when it came out he’d re-dubbed my voice and put a faggoty voice on it. Too much competition… tedious!

 

Tony Curtis

 
Digger: Are you nostalgic or do you look forward?
 
Victor: I’m just trying to think... No, I don’t go back. I’d hate to be eighteen or twenty-seven. I’m on the way out and I’m delighted. I’m ready to go.
 
Digger: That’s not to say you haven’t had a fantastic time.
 
Victor: Exactly. I’m ready to go because my philosophy is there’s no them, only us. Because once you get over there, you’re them and they’re us. My other maxim is, if you want something you give it away. If you want love you give it, if you want joy you give it, if you want happiness you give it, if you want interest you give it. If you want anything important then give it away and they’re yours forever.
 
Digger: When you had this very close relationship with George (Harrison) did that come across because he had that sort of philosophy?
 
Victor: John and I were the ones who’d discuss these things and sit up until four in the morning talking about things like this.
 
Digger: You’re all complicated and fascinating characters, of course, but John was really complex…
 
Victor: He had no ego. By that I mean if you said to him do you have a drawer full of songs to be discovered he’d say “No, I just ring up Paul and say Paul I think it’ time we got together to write another hit.” (Laughs) And we get together and write one. Now that is 'I do not seek, I find.' Remain as a child.
 
Digger: John seemed gentle and full of a desire for world peace and they call him an icon as a result but he also had a strong temper.
 
Victor: He had a temper, yes and he didn’t suffer fools gladly but he was not ego struck. For example, I worked with Sammy Cahn and Jimmy Van Husen in New York and Sammy Cahn was asked “What comes first, the music or the lyrics?” and he said “The cheque.” Which is a lovely line.
 
Digger: Born out of necessity:
 
Victor: So I said to John, “What’s your best lyric?”  and he said “Easy Vic, All You Need Is Love.” And that’s what I subscribe to, but I’m not loving my accountant at the moment.
 
Digger: But you don’t hate him either.
 
Victor: What? He said “I’ll walk you to the lift.” And I said “Don’t, 'cos I’ll push you down the lift shaft.”

Digger: What are your favourite roles?

Victor: Oh What A Lovely War!

Digger: What haven't you done that you'd like to?

Victor: I never had any plans and never made any. I've been at the RSC and at the National. I've done work in New York - just now I finished three shows at the Lincoln Center. I started out in variety, then I did cabaret, then I did musicals, then I did plays. In those days they'd ask "Are you straight or are you musical?" when you went to auditions. I've done all those things and I've never had a five year plan. If I don't make it in five years, make what? I already made it by being born.

Digger: Can you tell me about The Odd Couple?

Victor: Oh, I liked playing him! I loved playing Felix in The Odd Couple. One day I was playing the Saturday matinee and the 'phone rang and it was Franco Zeffirelli. He said "I come to see your show tonight, I want ten tickets." I said "But it's a sell out." So there was a knock at the door and there was Joan Crawford and I said to Franco "Can I call you back, Joan Crawford's just here?" and this voice on the 'phone went "You ****!!!" And it really was Joan Crawford and she said "I've seen this show in New York and I've seen it in Los Angeles and you brought something to this part that I've never seen before, and that's vulnerability."

 

Joan Crawford

 

Digger: My favourite bit in there is when Oscar is playing cards and there's a call for him and he goes to the 'phone. The guys all playing poker think he's talking to his new girlfriend and he's being all lovey-dovey for a minute or so and pretending to be shy and coy and romantic with her and then he says "Felix, it's your wife..."
 
Victor: Yes. The other bit I love is when he's going to get drinks for the Pigeon sisters and I'm sitting talking to them and when he comes back they're both in tears. (Both laugh)
 
Digger: Who would you have at a dinner party?
 
Victor: Jesus. He'd be rather good if we ran out of wine. Seriously, he'd be rather a good person to talk to. Because what we've got now is some Christianity is Crosstianity. George Bernard Shaw said that.
 
Digger: There's not a doubt that he existed, it's just what he represents that's the issue.
 
Victor: There was no hate or spite. And I was just giving this talk at the Beatlefest in March. A thousand people in the ballroom sitting and listening as if they'd hear a pin drop as I was talking about 'The lads', but I said "If you're a Beatle fan and you love their music then you have a responsibility. Anybody in this room who has bought a record saying kill the nigger, kill the Jew, kill the faggot then get out of this room now."
 
Digger: Did anybody get up?
 
Victor: No, they all cheered. I said "That's not in The Beatles' music." The only song that John ever wrote that was really angry was directed at Paul.
 

 

The Lads

 

Digger: I know you're at a certain age now, but you don't really think that things are worse now than they're ever been do you? Do you not agree that it always goes in cycles?
 
Victor: If you went back in history it was horrible. I wouldn't want to do that. When people ask what age I'd like to live in I say "Now" because at least now we have information available to everybody, music is available to everybody, art is available to everybody. It wasn't then. I'd be sitting outside the mud hut listening to the boss inside listening to the Spinet.
 
Digger: Waiting to be robbed and pillaged by the tribe down the road.
 
Victor:  (Laughs) You're quite right. I can give you an answer to this. The problem is we have not yet become human. We're still animals and living according to nature. Whatever I want I'm gonna grab. Watch an animal feeding. That's what we've become. We have become natural when we should become unnatural. we should grow away from nature because nature says the strong shall win and the weak shall go to the wall. That's Darwinism and that's nature and we are still naturally following Darwinism. We don't say "Wait a minute, we're human and we don't have to fight like stags over breeding". But we do.
 
Digger: Can I ask you about the English language. Obviously it's been very important in your life, right from the word go you wanted to be a teacher and it has played an important part in what you do. What do you think of the way that English is developing?
 
Victor: Oh, it's not developing!
 
Digger: Okay, well my choice of word wasn't literal. Degrading then?
 
Victor: It's terrible but you see on the other hand it's going to be computer speak soon. I'm going! I'm not going to hang around here.
 
Digger: There's a lot more Americanisation's creeping in as a result of the Net, film, music and TV in the last few years.
 
Victor: That's why The Beatles were amazing, because they wrote things like She's Leaving Home and others which had parochial references in them.
 
Digger: And Ray Davies was doing the same sort of thing. Very British lyrics.
 
Victor: Er.... Yes, yes! Anyway, the kids don't speak to anybody anymore, they're all sitting at keyboards. We're going into a machine age and one of these days pretty soon the planet will say "I'm sick of you lot" and it will shake herself and off we'll all go and it will be fine. And it will restore itself and it will be repeated again and we will still not yet become human. I love animals and I love to watch them.
 
Digger: Have you kept animals?
 
Victor: Of course not because I'm always on the go. I don't even have houseplants!
 
Digger: Can you tell me about your experiences with Burton and Taylor?

Victor: They were wonderful, generous, interested and magnificent. I'll explain why. I'm sitting in my dressing room in Rome doing Taming of the Shrew, and suddenly I was moved to write a short story, which I had never done. So I sat down and wrote this little story and I rushed into their dressing room and said "I've just written a story." "Oh, read it to us" said Richard. "Yes, please." Said Elizabeth, sitting down. So I read it to them and Richard said "That's wonderful you should get that published" and Elizabeth said "That was beautiful." Name two stars that would do that today. I didn't think it was that good.
 
Digger: Where did the urge to write come from?
 
Victor: Oh, I've written a lot in my time. Here's a poem - don't worry it's short and it won't hurt...

 
Now, okay so why did I do that? I go down to Wales and I'm asked to compere a show of 10,000 voices in Cardiff Arms Park. So I say okay, it's for a charity and ask where's the script and they tell me there isn't one. So I sat down and wrote that. And said it when I finished. 10,000 voices sang Myfanwy and there wasn't a dry eye in the house. I came off and the fellah said "Nice bit of Dylan Thomas you found there Vic." (Laughs) So things do flow.
 
Digger: Do you think the sixties left us a legacy?
 
Victor: What? The most important period of our history, so far. Because it's the first time the young spoke directly to the young without any intermediaries. And it had to be stopped.
 
Digger: And they weren't like little versions of the grown-ups either.

 

 

 

 
Victor: No, and they questioned and they asked. And it was stamped on and wiped out. And The Beatles were loved and then people said "Bastards" because they became a power. I spoke to them on the balcony in Salzburg in Austria and John said "Come and have a look at this Vic." And as far as you could see there were tens of thousands of Austrian kids and The Beatles put combs up to their lips and did mock Hitler speeches and 10,000 young Austrian children laughed back. Nobody else could have done that.

Digger: They were doing that in Hamburg too.

Victor: Aye, and not only that, children became Beatles fans first and ... Israelis second. They became Beatles fans first and Americans or Japanese second, and it had to be destroyed. They now piss on the sixties and say it was full of promiscuity, but it was the first time where the young communicated directly with each other. Now the young are speaking to themselves with the aid of the computer but not to anybody else.

Digger: What are your favourite comedies and favourite comedy actors?

Victor: Well now, there's brilliant comedy actors in this country. Brilliant. But unfortunately what they represent I find appalling. I love, for example, the comedy acting of Only Fools And Horses, but I loathe the premise which is all about how can we do somebody down to get a free tin of ... olive oil. And it's loved in Britain and we recognise it.

Digger: Isn't the premise also that they are always doomed to fail, and we're aware of them being underdogs too?

Victor: Yes, and wonderful acting. I mean, Steptoe and Son used to worry me too because that was always about knowing your place. When I was a kid and listening to the radio, I'd hear "You'll be lucky mate, park your car there." Have you noticed how traffic wardens uniforms resemble stormtroopers?

Digger: The Steptoe relationship was the inevitable failure.
   
Victor: And keeping you down.

Digger: And the relationship between the father and son that was very sad.

Victor: It's usually one class laughing at another or one accent laughing at another. I said to Peter Cook once "Why don't you do a show in your own voice?" And he said "Are you mad?" Because he had E.L. Wistey and he talked (impersonation) "Like a funny old bloke who came round to the door." And then they could all laugh at someone lower than them. The Golden Girls didn't work here because in America they were American but here they needed to be Scots or Welsh or Cockney. When I did The Odd Couple, people said to me "How can you sit down as an accountant and a sportswriter and play cards with a policeman ?" Because, in those days, policemen came to the kitchen door and said "Excuse me, madam, can I have a word with you?"  They didn't come in and play cards. That was happening in the sixties and they couldn't understand that in the play.

 

 

Peter Cook

 

Digger: You worked with Sid James. What was he like to work with?

Victor: What you see is what you get. No pretensions. He used to ask me if he could come round to the house and rehearse on the Saturday and he actually came round to watch racing on the TV because he wasn't allowed to do that at home. A lovely bloke.

Digger: I like your 'Pope story', by the way. When you're recognised more than The Beatles and there was a Victor Spinetti fan club in America. I call it the Alf Higgins story. Does the club still exist?

Victor: Yes. Actually, no! But I'm in touch with some of the girls who started it and some of their kids are called Victor!

Digger: Who were you with who had a bit of an ego who was shocked to be ignored when you were swamped by girls?

Victor: It was Warren Beatty.

Digger: Can you sum-up a favourite memory of The Beatles?

Victor: I said to all of them once "You know what you have, don't you, apart from talent of course? You look like you're telling the truth - you don't look like liars. You have that ring of truth about you, like the Colgate ring of confidence. When you're together you look honest." And they were.

Digger: It was the amalgam of the four individuals which made them extra special too, wasn't it?

Victor: Oh yes.

Digger: I cried on the day George died, and we knew he was going.

Victor: Dreadful, George was a connoisseur. He gave me a present which I am now going to give to you. I said "I can't get it together with Indian music, George." He said (impersonation) "Vic, you don't listen to it, you let it happen to you. Indian music is a flow. Western music is mathematically worked out."

Digger: There is a connection between music and maths isn't there?

Victor: Yes, and Indian music just flows. It's hop-in and hop-out, lay down and relax and float downstream. It is not dying.

Digger: That could be a lyric!

Victor: Tomorrow Never Knows.

Digger: So apart from sorting out your accountant, what are you doing now?

Victor: Nothing! I was just down in Wales last week talking to 500 women and Princess Anne for the Save The Children fund.

Digger: What's she like?

Victor: She said she's going to read my book. She enjoyed the chat.  She enjoyed the fact I wore a nice silk scarf. I said "No. It's a noose. If the speech doesn't go well."

Digger: They all seem to have a sense of humour, the royals.

Victor: Yes, I'd hate to do their job though. But where would we be without them?

Digger: I don't know and I suppose that's as good a reason for keeping them as anything else.

Victor: We don't want a commissar.

Digger: Or a president. Someone had a pop at Princess Anne didn't they?

Victor: Yes, in the Mall and her bodyguard's gun jammed and she shouted out to the man "Put that down!"

Digger: Scared him to death. You've been in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang - did you enjoy it?

Victor: Oh, I loved the show and loved the music. I hated the...

Digger: (Laughs) You're going to say you hated the kids now, aren't you?

Victor: (Laughs) No, you see when you walked on stage, you had three people to pass. One person to tick you off as you came in to the stage door to make sure you were there and when they called you someone would tick you off and then someone else would tick you off to make sure you were there for the opening. There were three people there with clipboards. Backstage it was run like a Swedish drill place.

Digger: I can see you wouldn't like that. How long were you in it?

Victor: A year. Christopher Biggins took over from me. I took over from wotsisname with the beard.

Digger: Brian Blessed.

Victor: I say to people that I took over from Brian Blessed but Biggins NEVER says he took over from Victor Spinetti.

Digger: He's had a renaissance. Doing well for a man who before was known as the bloke who played Lukewarm in Porridge.

Victor: Wonderful, and I'm delighted for him after all those horrors in the jungle. It brought his career back and I never could have done that. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I was going around the country. I mean, here's a point, my accountant is saying about the bills I have for The Ivy - well, in fact when you're out on the road and you're not on telly, and I'm never on telly, 'cos they can't find any Italian parts. That's what they say to me.

Digger: That's nonsense isn't it?

Victor: But they do. My first ever TV role, I'm not being angry or bitter about it, it's funny. I don't give a shit, I've managed this far without it. 

Digger: It's completely illogical, though. The whole point of being an actor is that you can play diverse roles and you get white guys blacking up and black guys whitening up!

Victor: The first TV I was ever offered was years ago - I was doing Oh What A Lovely War! at the time, and the TV programme was one episode of Doctor Finlay's Casebook and I was an Italian who couldn't speak a word of English. The second one arrived forty years later when I was doing 'Chitty' at the Palladium and it was one episode of Holby City and it was a dying old Italian.

Digger: (Laughs hysterically) Excellent!

Victor: That's my entire BBC career.

Digger: Well, I think the casting people must all be young spotty types who haven't got a clue, like some of the researchers who ask me for help having found me 'researching' on Google. When I tell them that there's a cost for my time, they plead poverty and want me to do it for free 'because it's for a TV programme and my input would be great.'

Victor: That's why Martin Clunes is always on TV. He's around and he's popular and they never think to use someone new for Reggie Perrin. Therefore, I'm never on telly and that's why I went into The Ivy and was spotted by a producer called Charles Vance who came over and said "Hello, what are you doing? " And from that I got three years work. He had the scripts to The Ladykillers, The Lady Vanishes and The Lavender Hill Mob. And in each of those I played the Alec Guinness part and got three years' work touring with those. That was from being seen - if I'd had a hamburger on the corner to save money I'd not have been seen so everything I've ever spent at The Ivy I've more than earned from work. 

Digger: To be honest, anybody under the age of forty these days tends not to know much about what has gone on before. When I was growing-up, and I was born in 1957, we learned a lot about the previous generations from the 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s, but today they don't seem to be aware. There are exceptions, of course.

Victor: I was asked by a floor manager if I could help settle a bet, quite recently. "Was Richard Burton Welsh?" he asked me. We're in the hands of people with no interest in the past. Actors used to talk about times past and the old actors, but the young ones don't want to know now. When I went to America with my one man show recently, they were applauding when I mentioned names. Here they don't care, although we get good audiences here, but there they were delirious. 

Digger: I think you've hit on a good point there, because I think that people overseas appreciate their stars and their talent and entertainers much more than we do. 

Victor: The New York newspaper said about my show "Of all the shows to be seen this weekend, the top one is Victor Spinetti's. He may not be a household name, but when you leave you'll be a fan of his forever." What a lovely review. If I was big on telly, they'd say "God, he does that as well." If I was on Dancing On Ice.

Digger: When are we going to see you on that or Celebrity Big Brother?

Victor: Couldn't do it. I mean, fair play to Biggins and he gets what he deserves. But he doesn't mention me because a lot of people have never heard of me. 

Digger: Well, a lot of people have, particularly Beatles and theatre fans, so thanks Victor for taking the time to talk to us.