You are in the Special Features section - Mary Wilson, The Supremes, Tamla Motown

(Phone rings: It's 8:30 am L.A. time...)

Digger: Hello Mary, it's David in the UK, how are you?

Mary: I'm fine David in the UK!

Digger: Are you a morning person?

Mary: Not really but... what time is it there?

Digger: It's 3:30 in the afternoon.

Mary: Yeah, I just left there last week.

Digger: Yes, it must be confusing. You spend more time here than I do!

Mary: I know, which I love. I was thinking perhaps I'd come over there and live, huh?

Digger: If you want some advice I'm happy to show you around.

Mary: When are you coming over here?

Digger: I'd love to.  With the economy the way it is at the moment I'm lucky to get a trip in the UK!

Mary: I know, I know.

Digger: Did you hear the news about Jacko? He's sold-out 50 UK concerts within 5 hours!

Mary: Oh, how beautiful.

Digger: He's running them from summer through to early spring 2010, but 50 concerts at the O2 Arena, formerly the Millennium Dome!

Mary: That's great, because some of us Motown artists are coming over there to tour this June and we don't have as much PR as he has! (Digger laughs)

Digger: I'm not sure whether you'd like to get some of the PR he gets though?

Mary: No, maybe not.

Digger: I've just been playing some of your songs for the last half hour to get myself in the mood and I'm standing up and moving around. Not a pretty sight. Shall we push on with the questions?

Mary: Sure, I'm ready.

Digger: What triggered your musical career and when did you know that music was going to be your life?

Mary: Er, well actually I used to listen to rock and roll when it was very early and I just loved it. Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers were my favourite group. And I was in the eighth grade when I joined the school talent show and I did one of their songs on the show. That was the very first time and I just fell in love with it. Then I met Florence and she told me about this group that they were going to start, and would I like to be in it, and that's what got me into doing this.

Digger: Were you and Florence soul-mates? 

Mary: Well, actually not just me and Flo, but me, Flo and Diane.

Digger: Dusty Springfield and The Beatles were huge champions of Motown, helping to establish a following for the music in Britain. Why do you think that Motown was so readily accepted and welcomed by the British? 

Mary: Because Dusty was the one who got us on 'Ready Steady Go!' But I think that they were so into music themselves that they fell in love with the Motown sound because they were really into rock and roll too.

The Supremes -  Mary, Flo Ballard and Diana Ross

Digger: On the first couple of Beatles albums there were several American tunes, including Smokey's You Really Got A Hold On Me. So they were obviously paying homage to those writers and performers.

Mary: Exactly, exactly. Well, we were all kind of listening to the same sorts of records, I believe. That's what it was all about - caught up in this new rock and roll.

Digger: Is Britain your second 'home'? It's a cliche question because whenever American stars come over here they say they love Britain, but in your case you're here so often that if you hated it that would be a problem.

Mary: I have always adored England.

Digger: What sort of area would you move to here?

Mary: I'd have to be in London. (laughs) You see because I'm a New York person so I'm a London person.

Digger: I'm a Londoner originally, born just behind Buckingham Palace (not literally, you understand!)

Mary: Oh I see. A real one.

Digger: The Funk Brothers were an integral part of the Motown sound. How close were you to these musicians, both in terms of discussing the musical nuances and mechanics of a song and also socially?

Mary: Oh, we were very close. The musicians and the writers and the artists. If you've ever seen the Hitsville building it's very small, so (laughs) we were all very, very close and it was like a big family of cousins and uncles and aunts and dads and grandmas all living and working in the same building.

Digger: And all looking out for each other.

Mary: Yes, and we would go on the tours together and the musicians were just a part of the family like everybody else.

Mary

Dusty with Martha Reeves

Rehearsals for TV Show 'Sounds of
 Tamla Motown', London - 1965

Digger: Following on from the above, a Motown song is instantly recognisable. What would you say were they key ingredients that created this unique sound?

Mary: Well, everyone tries to explain that and I won't say that I have the answer (laughs) but it was definitely the combination of all the factors I've mentioned, the writers, singers and musicians all kind of collaborating and all putting their unique experiences into it. And that all combined and made it like the Motown sound. You can say it was the tambourine or the drums or the bass or the singing but it was ALL of those. And also Detroit was a jazz town, so lots of the musicians played in the jazz clubs so you had that as well.

Digger: There used to be a snobbery with lots of musicians who said "I'm a jazz musician and don't like to play that rock and roll." 

Mary: Yes, that's the way it was.

Digger: The sixties was a musical explosion on both sides of the Atlantic. How would you sum-up the sixties and what do you think was the legacy of the period?

Mary: Obviously the sixties has been a model for the music that has come along after. It's all kind of based on that, but that's the way music is, I mean even the jazz. Every generation has its own sound and the next one builds upon that. But I would say that the sixties was definitely the most profound, in that music today is sampling it (laughs) so it really inspired the music that came after it.

Motown musicians James Jamerson and drummer 
Uriel Jones  playing with the Earl van Dyke band
  at the  Detroit club 'Blues Unlimited' - 1964

Digger: Did you like disco?

Mary: Disco was cool and it was fun but it definitely was one of those things that took the soul out of music. But who am I to say that it was bad? Because I danced to it.

Digger: Sir George Martin said to us "There's only two sorts of music, good and bad."

Mary: Yes (laughs) That's sound.

Digger: Who are YOUR icons?

Mary: I grew up a jazz person so I like people like Sarah Vaughan and Gloria Lynn and Nat King Cole, Tony Bennett, Tom Jones. 

Digger: Tom is having a renaissance these days and performing with all sorts of new acts.

Mary: Yes, he's really cool. He's one of those wonderful artists who can really sing so that's the reason. A good singer and performer as well.

Digger: What do you see as your biggest achievements?

Mary: Biggest achievement? One of them would be to be in The Supremes and to have twelve number one hits. And then my children, of course, I adore my children and that was my personal achievement. But then as Mary Wilson I've gone on and continued a career and I think many people didn't think that could happen. I think that I have come a long way since then, I'm not just one of The Supremes, I'm Mary Wilson.

Digger: Did you ever have any stilly stuff where people got you confused between Harold Wilson's wife Mary and you?

Mary: I used to get a lot of emails. (Digger laughs) Then in the early days of the Internet people got a bit confused! They've got it cleared up now.

Digger: And what would you still like to accomplish?

Mary: I'm actually recording a new CD and I'd like to have a nice recording career as Mary Wilson. Because I've not yet done that.  I'm recording with the Holland brothers.

Digger: Oh, wonderful!

Songwriters Brian and Eddie Holland 
and Lamont Dozier 

Mary: Yes. And we should have a product out by the end of the summer.

Digger: Recording in L.A?

Mary: It's in Detroit, musicians and all, and it's all original material so hopefully that will be a good legacy of Mary Wilson. All the songs have been written for me. So I'm very happy about that and I'm still touring. We're over there doing Wembley and all, Birmingham and Liverpool.

Digger: You didn't say Birming-HAM! You said it the British way. You're an honorary Brit.

Mary: No. (laughs) That's right! I know how to say it. It's like people say Detroit, but it's really DE-troit. So to still be able to tour is something I want to do because I really enjoy performing. And to record and to do some acting too. But I'm pretty much doing everything I want to do. I'm the spokesperson for the Humpty Dumpty Institute - the unexploded landmine clearances.

Digger: Yes. Tell us a bit more about that.

Mary: Princess Diana fronted it as a spokesperson. She made a lot of impact and I heard about it and I've been a cultural ambassador for the State Department here and when they needed someone else I was asked. And I was really delighted because my brother had been in the Vietnam war and I knew about it because of that. And I enjoyed being a part of it because it gives me something to do that's bigger than me. Something that we as human beings have done to other people. So I'm very happy to be a part of it and I've exploded some mines in Sri Lanka and Laos.

Digger: How do they do that?

Mary: You know what, first of all we had to remove all of the villagers - hundreds of people. And they have a squad of people who go in with metal detector things and they bind them and then with protective shields on they remove them very carefully to an area away from the homes and detonate them. And I was able to do that - 150 of them.

Digger: You mentioned about Vietnam and that was the American experience, but for the British, although we were aware of Vietnam it didn't effect us directly.

Mary: Exactly, exactly - I learned a lot because my brother was in it. But I do charity work alongside my concerts which gives me a pretty good feeling about myself - being a star but also being a human being who's trying to give back to humanity. 

Digger: What is most important to you in life?

Mary: My children.

Digger: Which of your recordings are you most proud of and which songs would you like to have recorded that you didn't?

Mary: Er, I hate to always dwell on this, but we didn't like Where Did Our Love Go which was our first hit record. But that had a lot to do with the style - we just wanted something funkier, but when it became number one, hey, what could we say?

And Mr Gordy was really cool with us and had he not taken a personal interest in us we may not have become as big as we did. Because he's the one who said "Listen, I'm going to put you with the Holland-Dozier-Holland boys and if they can't get you a hit, well nobody can."

Digger: The man in the street typically doesn't know the writers, but there are a few names like Bacharach, Lennon and McCartney and Holland-Dozier-Holland that people do know and recognise. They're household names.

Mary: Yes, and Holland-Dozier-Holland SHOULD be, because their music book is just ... Hu... HUGE. I mean, they recorded so many GREAT songs.

Digger: Humungous! That WAS the right word. 

Mary: That was it. (both laugh)

Bob Babbit - Funk Brother	Billy Preston - Funk Brother
Uriel Jones - Funk Brother	Joe Messina - Funk Brother
The Supremes in full song

Digger: Black music and black artists, both in the US and the UK, have made huge advances since the 'pioneering' days of the 50s and 60s. These days, not only are they accepted on equal terms but, in many cases, dominate various musical genres. Who would you cite as being the most influential people in making the dream into a reality?

Mary: Well, you know, the first I would say was Nat King Cole.

Digger: Yes.

Mary: There were many, many people who even today would go unnamed and the vast majority of people don't know who they are, but who were like Nat King Cole and out there in the Vaudeville days doing a great job. But only the black community knew about them.

Digger: Yes, they were sidelined weren't they?

Mary: But Nat King Cole, people knew because of his TV show. TV's a very strong medium and there were many like him but I'd say he was one of the first greats. And also Johnny Mathis too. People kind of forget a lot of the earlier pioneers.

Digger: What does the Obama presidency mean to you?

Mary: Well, again it's a dream come true, because when I was growing up and our generation of black Americans were growing up, we didn't have the same rights and privileges as the other Americans. So having my parents s making you aware as a child that "You can't do this because you're black." Let me tell you, we couldn't do certain things. We couldn't go into any restaurant or stay in any hotel like we can now. 

Digger: It seems incredible now.

Mary: Back then, you couldn't do those kind of things because it was just against the law. And many black people were killed. And people talk about the Holocaust but they don't really talk about the atrocities that happened to the black Americans who were hung and killed without anyone even caring. So with Obama as President we can see that we've come a very long way and there are people like my parents who won't know that dream...

Digger: That's very sad.

Mary: .. that Martin Luther King talked about and put it out in the open like that. So that it means that has come true.

Digger: And for it to happen so soon, actually, you couldn't have dared to believe that it would happen so soon. And it's great for the world.

Mary: It's great for the world. Yes, it is.

Digger: Following your experiences at Motown, you have worked to improve the rights of performers and trademarks for their names. What progress do you think you and your colleagues have made in this regard?

Mary: I actually have been a part of a group of entertainers where the names have become so famous that other people have just picked up our names and started using them.

Digger: Like a kind of identity fraud. It's very common.

A record shop window crammed
 with Motown records for sale
 - Martha Reeves looks on

Mary: It is. And it's one of those things where people can go to a show and see a group and not one of them are the people who recorded the songs. Noone has stopped them and declared that it's wrong and they cannot do that. So other artists and myself went to Capitol Hill and we started this legislation called Truth In Music where we hope to get a federal deal passed - we already have it in a number of different States, some thirty I believe, to declare it's against the law. So the goal is to get it passed in every State. I don't know why they don't just go ahead and get it passed nationally. I have friends in the government who could actually do that, but this is the way that they've chosen to go and so hopefully it will happen soon. The other thing I'm working on is with the Music Cares people and it's to do with performing rights. Now there in the UK, you guys get paid every time a record is played but here that's not so and we don't get a penny. So we're working with congress people and other artists to try to get that into law.

Digger: I know a musician who has had millions of airplays in the USA and I think he gets paid for those. Maybe it's different and he gets paid via the UK system? 

Mary: I've no idea, but it would be very helpful to a lot of people, especially to those who are no longer working. Their music is being played and they're not being paid. So that's something we're working on as well.

Frankie Lymon	Nat King Cole
Sarah Vaughan	Johnny Mathis
Mary	Motown boss Berry Gordy
The Beatles (Paul and Ringo) with  Dusty Springfield and Tom Jones

Digger: What makes you laugh?

Mary: I laugh at pretty much everything (laughs!)

Digger: What makes you sad?

Mary: Confrontation and seeing people hurt.

Digger: What makes you angry? 

Mary: People trying to push me around!

Digger: And what makes you hopeful?

Mary: Oh, laughter. 

Digger: It is a good tonic.

Mary: Yes.

Digger: Just one more question. You continue to tour heavily - how do you manage to maintain this gruelling schedule, where do you get the energy from and is it as enjoyable today as it has always been?

Mary: That's three questions, but that's okay! You know I love doing what I'm doing and my passion is my work. So here's what I tell people. You might as well love what you do, because you're going to have to work and if you love what you do then it doesn't matter. If you're going to work hard then do something that makes you happy.

Digger: So what have you got lined-up? You were talking about this tour.

Mary: The legends tour in June.

Digger: Who have we got there?

Mary: Let's see.... we've got The Commodores, Martha Reeves and The Vandellas, Mary Wilson of The Supremes, we have The Miracles and Junior Walker's All Stars. 

Digger: I wonder what you'd have said if somebody had told you in '63 or '64 that you'd be appearing with all these people again in 2009? 

Mary: I know! (laughs) I couldn't think that far ahead.

Digger: Can I hear children in the background?

Mary: Yes, that's my granddaughter and she doesn't like her hair being brushed. It's okay, baby.

Digger: Well, I'll let you go and have your breakfast now, Mary. That's been fantastic and thanks very much for that.

Mary: Okay, now you have the run down of the tour dates there?

Digger: Yes, I'll include it at the bottom of the article.

Mary: Okay David, right on.

Digger: Don't worry, I've got it all organised here! And I might see you when you come over in the summer.

Mary: I hope so. Bye bye.

Mary at The story of The Supremes exhibition