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Shel Talmy - Record
producer who mastered much of the
soundtrack to the British sixties.
Digger:
What makes a great record producer?
Shel:
Somebody who gets hits, I suppose, is the easiest
answer. I don't think there's any definition. I think it's
the same thing that applies to anybody who does well in a
particular field. They have a knack for it. Now whether
that is trained or inborn is conjectural and people
could argue that forever. I think probably a bit of
both. Certainly you've got to work at it but you've
got to start with something in the first place. I thought
that from when I first got into this thing that I
was always able to pick a hit when I heard it -
immediately, what I thought was going to be a hit.
So consequently I think that one of the prime talents
of a record producer is being able to spot a hit before
it's recorded and before the trend has come
- you're working six months ahead.
Digger: Seeing the potential of something.
Shel:
Yeah, you HAVE to do that.
Digger: How did you get into the music business and
who were your heroes and influences?
Shel:
Well I got in the music business as an alternative
to what I really wanted to do which was a film director. But
I was born with an eye condition which I was informed was
going to get worse and worse. So I thought that probably
wasn't too swift an idea for a film director. So I chose
the next best thing which is sort of directing in a way but
without the visuals.
Digger: How old were you when you were making
these sorts of choices?
Shel: I was probably about 20 or
so and I started working
at a studio which was actually run by an English guy. He
trained
me as a recording engineer and such was the nature of things
at that time that I did my first solo session three days after
I started. It was obviously LOTS easier then - we're talking
about three track and much more simplified boards than
are available today. And the boards over here and in the
UK were pretty similar actually.
Digger:
Before we started you were talking about
Andrew Loog Oldham and his book - what
about your book then?
Shel:
I wouldn't hold my breath! ( Digger laughs )
I don't think it would be very interesting.
Digger: You're joking?
Shel:
I really don't. I have WRITTEN books but they
were fiction and I had them published, under a pseudonym
and my own name. I was a book publisher as well and had a
couple of major books here. I've never really seriously
considered doing an autobiography.
Digger: Why don't you think there's enough material there?
There's got to be. You've had a fascinating life, rubbing
shoulders with all these interesting people, generating the
soundtrack to all of our lives.......
The
Who
Shel: Yeah. How many pages is
that going to take up?!
All the really interesting stories are road stories and I
didn't
do the road, I was in a studio. And personally I don't think
there's enough there to make an interesting book.
That's my opinion anyway.
Digger: Okay. I've got to
respect your opinion -
you should know.
Shel: I think it would bore me to
tears and I don't
think it's going to happen.
Digger: All
I can say cynically is that it hasn't stopped
lots of other people!
Shel: Exactly. I don't want to be associated with that.
Digger:
You mixed with the Chelsea Set. Can you
tell us some of the people you befriended there and
what sorts of things you got up to?
Shel:
When I got to Chelsea it was absolutely the right
place at the right time. I was there before the whole of
Chelsea exploded. There were probably 400 of us who sat up
long into the night and did what you are probably supposed to
do
at university. Talk about what we're gonna do and how we're
gonna do it and all that kind of jazz. And when we went
to a party we moved together all 400 of us!
Digger: They'd be called
'movers and shakers'
these days, wouldn't they?
Shel: Yup. All of a sudden at
that time it all happened -
the photographers, Mary Quant was there, Michael
Caine, David Bailey................
Digger: Peter Blake, Terence
Conran?
Shel: If they were I don't remember them. There seemed
to be more - actors and actresses like Terry Stamp, Jean
Shrimpton, Julie Christie and a lot of the models.
A LOT of models.
Digger: That sounds like a
COUPLE of chapters
to me! ( Laughs )
Shel: Yeah, it could certainly make a
kiss and tell book.
Digger: But you're not into that?
Shel: Not really. What's the point?
Digger: I don't like all this tabloid
journalism stuff. I'm not
interested in the 'News of the screws'.
Shel: I'm not out to brag about
how large a dick I have -
it's pretty much nobody's business.
Digger: What was your preference
for using IBC studios?
Shel: IBC was the first studio I went to
because Phil, the
guy I was working for in L.A. used to work at IBC and it was
the font of all engineers. It was the studio from which damn
near every engineer who went anywhere started.
Digger: They weren't starting in
Abbey Road then?
Shel: No, hell no! Most of the
really good engineers started
at IBC and spread out. And it was what was then state of the
art then. They had very good maintenance staff and very good
technical people. They were building their own boards
and were innovative.
Digger: Still a little bit behind
the Americans though?
Shel: Not really, they were
pretty much on top of where
everything was in the States at that point in time. It was a
great old Georgian building in Portland Place..........
Digger: Can you recall exactly where
that was?
Shel: Number 35?
Digger: 'Cos I was talking to
Eddie Phillips a while ago
and he was talking about all the stuff that The Creation
did there.....
Shel: It's no longer there. Chas
Chandler bought it after
IBC had it. Then when he died - I have no idea, but it's
no longer a studio.
Digger: The building's still there, it's probably just
an office.
Shel: They had a preservation
order -they had this GREAT
ceiling and an Adam fireplace. All that kind of stuff
and it was covered with acoustic material. The
acoustics were actually terrific.
Digger: Strange isn't it? ....... You
were keen on using
Nicky Hopkins and Bobby Graham. Can you describe
them as musicians?
Shel: Two of the BEST. Nicky was certainly one of the
best piano/keyboard players I've ever known. I introduced
him to both The Kinks and The Who. The Who continued
to use him forever and The Stones picked him up and he
went on from there. Bobby Graham was the first of the
great session drummers and he then had a drinking problem
and disappeared. But he's back now and I'm in touch with
him by the way - he contacted me recently. A sensational
drummer. The next one on from him was Clem Cletini.
Digger: You blagged your way into the
British music industry
and they accepted you as the big American 'I am'. There
seems to be a snobbery that worked in your favour here and
also works for English people in America where they
seem to be impressed by the accent, titles and so on.
Shel: I was a brash 21 year-old
with nothing to lose - I
didn't have anything. I had an offer waiting back for me
in L.A. so I didn't care. I thought if I could work for a
few weeks and make some bread to pay for the trip would
be nice. And I basically lied, I took my friend Nick's
demos with his blessing and played Lou Rawls and The
Beach Boys and Dick Rowe said "Thank God you're
here, you start today"!! ( Laughs )
Digger: Did you tell him you were
responsible for
all the Beach Boys' hits?
Shel: There was no 'all the Beach
Boys' hits'. There
was only Surfin' Safari ( Digger laughs ) Lou Rawls
I did There's Music In The Air with - which was
terrific and he was fabulous.
Digger: I don't remember him
until the seventies.
A great deep dark brown voice...........
So having lived and worked in both places, what
would you say are the main difference between
the U.K. and the U.S?
Shel: London is far more
concentrated and you can get
away with a lot less in London than you can in America because
it's so spread out. I mean, those who are so inclined can lie
with impunity forever in America whereas they can't
get away with that in London.
Digger: So they can blag their
way around America?
Shel: Some people have made a
career out of it.
Digger: But at the end of the day you've
got to be able to
produce something as well, surely?
Shel: Well, one ASSUMES so but I have certainly known
a couple....... three people at least who have continued to
do nothing but continued to get gigs. I don't understand it.
Digger: There are people that go around
doing conventions
and seminars and acting as consultants who
don't actually do anything.
Shel: Unbelievable!
Digger: You used session musicians on many of your
productions.
At what point would this not be appropriate? I mean, would
you always need to have a nucleus of the
original band on a recording?
Shel: It wouldn't be appropriate
when the band was
capable of doing it itself. I mean, for example, I used
The Ivy League for the backing vocals on I Can't Explain
because The Who were not able and that really spurred
them into learning how to do that. I used Bobby Graham
with You Really Got Me and the first album simply because
Mick Avory wasn't there yet. Or he'd just come in and
was obviously not as good as Bobby. So I used them
when I had to. Or I used someone additionally like Nicky
when there was no keyboards in the first place. I used
Jimmy Page as rhythm guitarist with The Kinks because Ray
didn't want to play - he wanted to concentrate on singing.
So all the lead stuff is always Dave's and always has been.
Digger: There was always this hoo-ha
about.........
Shel: Yeah, I know. A Lot of
times Jimmy claimed he did
this and that but he doesn't do that anymore. I don't know
why he did that, he's done so many great
things he didn't have to.
Digger: Can a bad song or a bad
group of musicians
be produced so that they are good?
Shel: A bad song - never. Bad
musicians - certainly. Bad
musicians with a great song are going to have a hit.
They may be a one-hit-wonder but it's gonna
happen. A bad song - never.
Digger:
What do you do - do you see the manuscript in
front of you - how do you go about deciding? Is there
a demo tape or does someone hum or strum the first few
bars of the tune? How does it work?
Shel: All of those, all sorts of
ways. Generally it's
what we talked about earlier. I hear something that
strikes me as potentially good and I say "Let's hear
more and let's see if we can develop it". Certainly
some songs totally stood out. When Ray played me four
bars of Sunny Afternoon I said "That's our next number
one" because it just stood out, head and shoulders
above everything.
Digger: Would you say that a song was
going to be a hit
in the U.K. but not in the U.S?........
Shel: No, I didn't look at it
that way. As far as I was
concerned I was making records that would sell anywhere
because I was American. And all my records, certainly from
MY point of view, had an American sound
with an English slant.
Digger: That's what Mick Avory was
saying, actually.
I was asking him why they had eventually made it so big
in America and he said that they had always liked the British
culture and harked back to their roots. So although we
were taking coals to Newcastle by taking R 'n B and Rock
and Roll back to America we were taking it in
a very British way.
Shel: That's true, ESPECIALLY The
Kinks.
Keith
Moon
Digger: In the triumvirate of writer, musician and
producer, is this an equal relationship and, if not,
which is most important?
Shel: Well..... yes and no. It
certainly depends on the three
elements in question. Sometimes the producer is non-existent.
The way I think it SHOULD work is that it should start with
the song. At that point number one in importance is the
writer.
Then, if the writer and the artist are the same then that's
even better. Then the producer has to work with those
other two components and fashion something. In other
words what the producer brings, or should bring, is
objectivity.
Almost no artist is objective enough to do their own stuff,
there are exceptions obviously. But the vast majority are
far too subjectively involved to get it right. They need
somebody who can stand outside and say "Yeah, but if
you did it that way it would be better".
Digger: Can you think of any artists that could
do that. Not even The Beatles maybe?
Shel: The Beatles didn't did
they? George Martin certainly
was a HUGE influence on them. They didn't do it. I'm
trying to think who the hell did. Or who was capable of
it........ But it's very hard! I suppose at some point I could
say Simon and Garfunkel - at least Paul Simon. But it
took him FOREVER to get it done.
Digger:
I know you don't have any real favourites amongst
the numerous bands and solo artists you have produced,
but can you describe the following in a sentence each?
.............
Manfred Mann ( The man )
Shel: In a word. Difficult. (
Digger laughs )
Digger:
Manfred Mann ( The group ) ........
Shel: I always felt like their
shrink rather than their
producer. They were all - constantly arguing with
each other. And I had to shout "ENOUGH!!!"
Manfred
Mann
Digger: Was it because they were
very intellectual,
had big egos or what?
Shel: They all went to the same
university I think and
were used to debating absolutely everything and anything.
And so this carried over into the studio. That's the way
it worked. And eventually I'd just had enough.
Digger: What was the age
difference between
you and these bands?
Shel: Very small. On some
occasions they were
actually older than me.
Digger: Was that a problem?
Shel: Manfred, I think, is older
than I am. I never
had a problem with it, no.
Digger: 'Cos with The Beatles and
George Martin there
was a big age difference wasn't there?
Shel: Yes, but I was never more
than three or
four years older than anybody.
Digger: You didn't have any
problems with
keeping authority?
Shel: I didn't, but I did it at a cost, because I chose to
keep
an arm's length relationship and never hung out with the
bands. Specifically for that reason.
Digger: You were coming up with
some very mature
decisions for somebody so young.
Shel: It was a question of how best to do the job and a
lot of the time I was spending my own money. And I wanted
to get the most out of it because I didn't have a lot at that
time. And so I chose the path of saying somebody has to
steer this ship and it's gonna be me and consequently I can't
do that and be one of the boys. Which I'm sorry about as
a matter of fact. If there was some way I could have
done it. But I would have had no authority in the studio
whatsoever if I'd been one of the boys.
Digger: ....... Boozing, drugging and womanising.
Shel: They would have turned-up
in the studio and would
never have listened to me. So I said well that's
the price you gotta pay for this.
Digger: A description of The Who
in a sentence?
Shel: The best rock band in
England at that time,
I think. Without question.
Digger:
Keith Moon.........
Shel: Without a question of
doubt, the BEST
rock drummer of all time.
Digger:
Pete Townshend........
Shel: Very bright. One of the
GREAT songwriters. At that
point in his life, sarcastic as hell. ( Digger laughs )
Digger: Did you have many run-ins
with him
as a result of his sarcasm then?
Shel: Well no. He was great. He
always used to do what
I thought was a test. And if people folded-up then
he'd climb all over them. If he got as good as he got
then he was great. And he was fun. We had our differences
but it was nothing major. It's no secret that the guy I
had the differences with was Kit Lambert who used
to drive me f***ing crazy.
Digger: People working in a
studio for hours, days on
end are going to have some frictions.
Shel: No doubt about it.
Digger: I think you described Kit
in another interview
I saw as 'something of a loony'.
Shel: Kit was....... I believe it ran in
the family.
( Digger laughs ) His father was supposedly mad - he was
a well-known musician, Constantine Lambert and
Kit was not my cup of tea.
Digger: Roger Daltrey........
Shel: Certainly one of the great
lead singers at the time.
He was fabulous. I never had a relationship with
him, just wasn't to be.
Digger: He said that if he hadn't
gone into music
he would have ended-up in crime.
Shel: I think so, yeah. He was
definitely a wide boy.
Digger: The Kinks........
Shel: The band that brought music
hall to rock. The band
who probably represented England better than anybody
in terms of Englishness in rock.
Digger: Strangely successful
internationally given
the numerous specifically English references.
Shel: Yeah, and Ray is certainly
one of the great prolific
songwriters of all time. He had a lot to say and he
said it well. And most of the stuff was extremely English,
which is fine. I think it worked fine and putting it into
rock was something that nobody had really done. Things
like Dedicated Follower Of Fashion are about as
English as you can get.
Digger: And topical as well. It's
almost like a newsreel.
Shel: And topical, yeah. And yet
it was a terrific rock song.
Digger:
The Creation.......
Shel: Well, you know my thoughts
on Creation.
The
Creation
Digger: The same feelings as
mine.
Shel: Superstars but I could NOT
hold them together. I
tried everything I could but it just didn't happen
Digger: Eddie Phillips......
She: The best unknown guitarist
in England, without question.
He should be right up there on the list along with Hendrix
and Jimmy Page and everyone else.
Digger: Don Craine told me that he thinks Eddie was
better than Beck and Clapton.
Shel: He was.
Digger: They've been doing a lot
of top tens here on telly.
Eddie didn't even get a mention in the top ten
guitarists. It's criminal.
Shel: It is. It's disgusting.
Digger: Did you come into contact with a lot of producers?
Shel: Yeah.
Digger:
Can you tell us what your thoughts are on some
of them? What about Tony Hatch?
Shel: I think he was one of the
better M.O.R.
producers for the time.
Digger: Famously producing Petula
Clark.
Shel: Yeah and others. That's
where he seemed to be at.
I think once that phase of music passed then so did he.
I don't think he adapted.
Digger: He then went into TV and
film themes and jingles.
Shel: I think he knew where his
strengths lay.
Digger:
Mickie Most.......
Shel: Mickie was one of the best
choosers of songs of
anybody on the scene at the time. He started off as an
absolutely terrible producer from a production point
of view but he became good.
Digger:
Tony Visconti.......
Shel: He's right up there with
the best. Look at his credits.
Digger:
Joe Meek.......
Shel: I never met him, I heard all about him and Clem who
was in The Tornados talked about him. And from others
I heard he was crazy as a bed bug. ( Diggers laughs ) How
much influence did he have? I have NO idea -
what does influence mean?
Digger: George Martin......
Shel: One of the best producers
around. And classy - a cool
guy. I didn't meet him a whole lot but at the times I did
meet him I always liked him immensely.
Digger:
Phil Spector......
Shel: A psycho.
Digger: ( Laughs ) There seems to
be a theme running
through the conversation so far.
Shel: Who else did I say was a
psycho?
Digger: Kit, Joe Meek...........
Shel: Hey listen, the music
business breeds them
doesn't it? ( Laughs )
Digger: You mentioned Keith's
amazing drumming ability.
You never mentioned his temperament.
Shel: I NEVER had a problem with
Keith. I know he did some
weird and wonderful things. But never in the studio. Outside
of the studio in fact he was the guy I was
closest to in the band.
Digger: That's strange, because
one of his best friends
was Oliver Reed. And again although he was considered
a really bad boy and got up to all sorts of tricks they said
as soon as he got on set he was the consummate professional.
Shel: Yeah, maybe there's a correlation
there.
Keith was totally professional.
Digger: Brian Wilson......
Shel: Oh, probably the best
one-eared producer in history.
( Digger laughs ) His productions were BRILL. As a band
their models were The Four Freshmen but they took it
to a different level and put it in rock terms.
Digger: And he actually stepped
back from the group
and concentrated on the studio.
Shel: He was another who took
forever to get something done.
Which nobody did at the time. But maybe that was because
he could only hear in one ear, I don't know.
Digger: It's very difficult to
decide when to let go as well,
I guess, is it? When you have done so many versions, so
many takes it must be really difficult to say that this is the
definitive one and we can't get any better that this?
Shel: Okay, well you ask what a
producer's supposed to
do and the producer is supposed to make choices. And
so I have no respect for so-called producers who have done
450 versions of something and they leave it till the last
second to sort it out. Make a choice, come on! In Brian
Wilson's
case I think there was partly the physical disability that
made
him take so long and I think maybe also the drugs. And thirdly
maybe also it was just the way he was, but anyway it certainly
worked out. But he's rare.
Digger: And by then he also had the
luxury of being very,
very rich so he COULD take a long time..........
Can you describe yourself as a producer?
Shel: I think I'm a good producer
in terms of production.
I've put in the hours and paid my dues starting as an
engineer which most of the guys we talked about did not.
Digger: Joe Meek did.
Shel: Er, yeah but I don't think
he was
much of a producer.
Digger: An innovator rather than
a
producer maybe.
Shel: Yes, I would go along with
that. But I spent a lot of
time experimenting with sounds especially with isolation of
instruments so they wouldn't leak onto each other. And I
separated all that stuff and within the technical abilities of
the time try to extend the envelopes. I could cut hotter
records than anybody did and I think for the most part
I did. So I think I'm a good producer.
Digger: A good track record.
Shel: Reasonable. I'm not unhappy
with it. There's a few
things I'd have liked to have done. But so does
everybody I expect.
Digger:
Do you think it's a mathematical thing as well as
an artistic thing. I mean, do you need to be an electronics
wizard and to understand modulation and frequencies
and all these sorts of things?
Shel: I think it helps. It
certainly helped me. I like the
technical side of it and I did my own engineering on a
lot of The Kinks stuff. And then I decided that I really
couldn't do that and produce at the same time because
they are really two entirely different jobs.
So I started using engineers.
Digger:
So you had to have a good right hand man.
Shel: I definitely went for the
best engineer I could find
who was 'on the same page'. I didn't particularly want to
have an engineer who wanted to do it HIS way. That's
not where I was at. Like I said it was me driving the ship.
Digger:
I know you're not a great fan of band managers
by and large but can you think of any who you think did
a good job for their acts and for the sixties scene?
Shel: For openers I feel that the
term 'a good band manager'
is a bit of an oxymoron ( Digger laughs ). I think that
in most cases, apparently by judging what's happened to
be a band manager you have to be an ass-hole. You have
to put yourself on a par with band, be obnoxious and
all that kind of thing. There are exceptions and I think
Epstein might have been an exception and look what
happened to him. The only guy I can think of who was a
good band manager who I liked was Tony Stratton-Smith.
Apart from that I can't really think of anybody that
thrills me. I think again with rare exceptions and I'd be
pushed to tell you who they are - band managers generally
have no talent whatsoever. And that's why they are what
they are. They have a talent for pushing the band and
probably for getting P.R. and in some cases a talent for
intimidation. I'm sure you know what we're talking about
here. But actual talent? Very seldom.
Digger:
Do you think that Bob Dylan was resigned to
having other people interpret his songs better than himself?
Shel: I doubt if the thought ever
crossed his mind.
Digger: Did you meet him?
Shel: I never have funnily
enough. Our paths
have never crossed.
Digger:
Would you agree that The Who were
better musicians than most?
Shel: Oh, without question.
Digger: Raw talent?
Shel: You already know what I
think of Moonie. Entwistle
was a far above par bass player. Pete was, I've always said,
the best lead rhythm guitarist there is. He's not really a
lead guitarist but he's aware of that. He was a wonderful
guitarist and absolutely central to what the band did.
Digger: How would you compare them to The Beatles
and The Stones in terms of rock hierarchy?
Shel: Again, it's an apples and
oranges thing because
they're not comparable. I think they're the best British
solid rock band. The Stones were certainly in that same
orbit and were good but not as good as The Who.
The Beatles were not particularly good musicians -
absolutely brilliant in every other way. Musicianship
was not really where it was at.
Digger:
When you heard the play-backs of tracks like
My Generation, Substitute, You Really Got Me, Waterloo
Sunset, Making Time or How Does It Feel, did the hairs
on the back of your neck stand up and did you realise
you had all created something very significant
and important?
Shel: The answer is yes! When one
hears something one
is supposed to say "That is a hit" and I did with
those.
Digger: It's difficult isn't it because you don't want to
be smug or big-headed but sometimes when you do something
like that you just have to say "That's damned good".
Can you remember being in the studio with the guys and
playing any of these back and looking at each other with silly
grins on your faces or doing a silly dance because you
realised it was such a classic?
Shel: I think certainly that was
the case
for 'Generation'.
Digger: I think the term 'Rock anthem' actually
came about as a result of that track.
The
Easybeats
Shel: It did yeah. I think that
certainly did change
a lot of stuff. I think Friday On My Mind was one.
I think Waterloo Sunset was without question - just
brilliant. And with You Really Got Me I knew we had
something, I didn't know it was going to be that big but
I knew it should be a hit and when it just shot to number
one in the first week.
Digger:
A result!........... Who is the lady or are the ladies
doing backing vocals on Waterloo Sunset?
Shel: It was Ray's wife at the
time.
She was on a lot of the stuff.
Digger:
You don't always hear it. It depends on the
equipment you're listening to it on.
Shel: She kept pretty much on key
but not totally so
she was sort of in the background.
Digger:
Did you think you were just creating throw-away
rock and pop or did you think your music would last?
Shel: I never considered it as
throw-away pop. I considered
each project as doing the best I could for the time and
hoped that it would be a hit and hoped that it would last.
Did any of us think that it would last this long? Hell no.
I think we thought five years was gonna be a lifetime.
Go
to Part two of the conversation
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